Robert Smigel is one of Saturday Night Live’s most celebrated writers, perhaps best known to the show’s viewers for his “TV Funhouse” cartoons, which were later spun-off into a standalone Comedy Central series. He was also the founding head-writer of Late Night with Conan O’Brien, where he was instrumental in crafting the show’s voice. He was the executive producer of the short-lived but now legendary Dana Carvey Show. He’s also the mastermind behind Triumph the Insult Comic Dog, who Smigel developed while working at Late Night, and who has since gone on to appear on almost every late-night show of note.
All of which is to say that Robert Smigel’s late-night footprint is vast, so it only makes sense that he’d be the first returning guest on Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff.
In Part 2 of his two-part return to the podcast, Smigel tells Mark about the first time he imitated a dog on national television (and no, it wasn’t Triumph), the Late Night joke that prompted a lawsuit from Red Buttons, and why he considered pulling the Lorne Michaels-focused cartoon he produced for SNL’s 25th anniversary.
Plus: Smigel flexes his impersonation skills as he reads us the “lost” script for a sketch he wrote featuring Chris Farley and Lorne Michaels that didn’t make it past read-through.
This is a conversation you won’t want to miss. Click the embed below to listen now, or find Inside Late Night on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Robert Smigel’s most recent projects include the new YouTube special Triumph Presents: Let’s Make a Poop Chicago Edition and the Netflix original animated film Leo (which he co-wrote and co-directed). Follow him on X/Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok.
Show Transcript
Mark Malkoff: So you’re sitting in your office, fall of ’93, Conan launches, and like a month later, what is your reaction when you found out that Red Buttons, the comedian, is suing the show?
Robert Smigel: Oh, that’s hilarious.
That makes the New York Times. I think people probably remember it. It was a Clutch Cargo, right? Is that what he was responding to?
Yeah, it was a Clutch Cargo, and then we ended up, I believe. Yeah, I feel like It was so silly. Ted Danson, this was like before there was real cancel culture. It was much harder to get yourself canceled, but Ted Danson managed to, for a brief amount of time, because he performed, it was a Friar’s Roast of, maybe it was of Whoopi Goldberg, I’m assuming.
They were together when he did the routine.
They were dating at the time, and he came out in blackface. I’m sure he thought it was, you know, kind of appropriately inappropriate for a Friar’s Club roast. But everybody felt it was very inappropriate. I don’t think Whoopi did, but he got a lot of flack for it. And it was on the front page of the New York Post. And there was a lot of outrage. And so we did a Clutch Cargo where I played Ted Danson and Ted Danson at one point was defending himself saying… and he was just naming and the whole joke was just, as if this is any defense, to name really old comedians who found it hilarious. So I believe one of the lines was, “Red Buttons was pissing in his pants he thought it was so funny, come on!” It was that kind of thing. And the whole joke was like, you’re not really making a very convincing defense by saying that a 70 year -old man, white guy found it funny. And that was all it was. That was it. It was just one joke within the bit. And Red Buttons was so panicked about anyone taking it seriously that he announced he was suing. And I guess he didn’t mind getting some publicity as well. And I’m positive that we just made a meal out of it and we went back on the air and did a Red Buttons Clutch Cargo.
Yeah, at the time no one was really talking about him.
Yeah, I mean he was this guy who was a big comedian in the late fifties and maybe 60s, and then he had this bit on Johnny Carson where he would name people and say “never got to be in a… so and so, who once said blah blah blah blah blah joke joke never got to be on the Carson show.” And he would just go on and on with different people, and it was a great, very popular bit, and I’m sure we parodied that. But that was it that was it was just it was just an old comedian trying to make something out of a really innocuous joke.
Yeah I just thought it [was interesting] that it would end up happening right in the infancy of Conan. I thought the timing…
We thought it was hilarious. We weren’t concerned about it.
October 25th, 1997. Chris Farley comes back to host the show and you wrote four sketches that I know of. Which were—and I wanted to ask if they all got through read-through. One was a Bears sketch that didn’t get in, that I know of. One was Minnesota Fats. It was Farley playing Minnesota Fats. Another one with him playing Rosie O’Donnell, like a Rosie O’Donnell Show. And then the last “Motivational Speaker.”
The Motivational Speaker did get on the show.
That was the one, but do you remember those three others?
No, I’ll have to look them up. I do remember the Bears sketch did get on.
Oh, that did. Okay. The Minnesota Fats with him playing the pool thing and Rosie didn’t, I guess, get in.
I don’t remember either of those sketches, but I will look them up.
You got to the table read, I believe, or at least you submitted them. But yeah, I was just wondering, were you, then were you there on the floor for Farley when he hosted since you had stuff in?
I was. And um, you know, I talk about that. That’s in the Chris Farley book.
Yeah. They’re going to make that into the movie.
I mean, What I talked about is in the Chris Farley book.
Yeah, we don’t have to talk about it. I just miss the guy so much.
Yeah. Well, I mean, that was, you know, I have nothing but bad feelings about that episode.
The only thing I understand is that if he was doing the show, he would be distracted and getting into maybe more trouble. I do get that part.
Yeah, I mean, that was one justification that was bandied about.
But it should have been canceled. I mean, the whole thing should have been canceled.
Well, I mean, whatever I said in the book is.
No, no, no, I got that. I get that. It’s in there.
It’s, you know, I thought it was an opportunity to help him by taking him off the show publicly.
Yeah. Did you ever on a rerun of Saturday Night Live ask for one of your sketches to be replaced with a dress rehearsal sketch because it played better at dress.
Oh, that was not uncommon. Oh, yeah, I did write a Rosie sketch.
Oh, you did write the Rosie sketch. Okay.
I wrote a Rosie sketch where he played Rosie O’Donnell. It sounds like, oh, yeah, but then he breaks down and I’m just reading it now.
Tell us about it.
I’m going to read it out loud to you, and I’m going to rediscover it with you. “Open on crude replica of Rosie O’Donnell’s show.” I may regret this. “Singers: ‘So grab onto your chair, because she’s headed for there. It’s The Rosie O’Donnell show.’ Cheri, in audience, is a spunky old lady on the front row: ‘Now here’s Rosie!’” Because she used to have people in her audience every night, every morning introduce her. “Chris Farley bursts out as Rosie. Audience goes wild. Chris Farley, yelling, no impression at all: ‘Yeah! Woo! Woo! I’m Rosie O’Donnell. Yeah. Baby! Here I go baby, I’m Rosie O’Donnell. Woo hoo! Hey, bandleader!’ Will Ferrell, as the bandleader, is trying to enjoy Chris. Chris: ‘I’m Rosie!’ (Does a cartwheel.) ‘Look at me! I’m Rosie! Woo!’ Suddenly tears off his wig and disgust and yells, ‘Damn it! I suck! Can’t do Rosie,O’Donnell. Sorry, I’m sorry. Gee!’ Lorne enters. ‘What the hell’s going on, Chris?’ ‘I’m sorry, I have no idea how she sounds. I can’t.’ ‘Chris, we spent a fortune on this set and that costume because you said you could do Rosie. Now what are we going to do?’ ‘Oh, God, oh God… Look, I’ll do someone else. Who’s fat?’ ‘Oh, okay, okay. Think, think, think.’ ‘I’m trying.’ And then back to Farley: ‘Fat, fat. Fat. And Lorne’s like, ‘As fat as you…’ ‘Man, the pressure. I got it. Brando.’ Lorne: ‘You can do him?’ ‘Uh, Yeah.’ ‘Okay, we’ll make the changes. Go, run, run, run!’ Lorne: ‘Get the Bruer guy.’ Crude animation with Brando hurriedly re -put in Rosie’s place. ’So grab onto your chair, because he was the godfa-there, it’s the Marlon Brando show.’ Cut to Cheri and the audience confused, but game. ‘And now here’s Marlon.’ Chris busts out as Brando. The wig is different. Most of the lipstick has been removed, but the clothes are the same as Rosie’s. Audience goes wild. Jim, as Pesci, is the bandleader. ‘Hey, how you doing? I’m Brando. Woo! I’m Brando. Hey, I’ll make you an offer. You shouldn’t refuse. I’m Apocalypse now. the horror. You talking to me? I’m Brando.’ He does a cartwheel returns to the Chris Farley voice. ‘Wee, yeah, baby.’ Throws off the wig. ‘Damn it!’ Lorne runs in. ‘What happened?’ ‘I don’t remember what Brando says. Well, thanks to you, we don’t have time to write a sketch. That takes ten minutes.’ ‘I remember,’ Chris Farley says. ‘Well, now what,’ Lorne says? ‘I don’t know, let’s think of more fat people. ‘That’s not my job,’ Lorne says. And Chris says, ‘What is your job?’ ‘It’s to not do that. Who’s not busy? Brewer, get me the fat black guy.’” Oh, Jesus. “Jim is offended now. He says, ‘Lorne!’ Lorne rolls his eyes. ‘Sorry, the fat African -American guy.’ Tracy Morgan enters. ‘Yes, sir. Yes, sir?’ Lorne: ‘Get me a list of fat celebrities. I mean as fat as Chris, okay? Get me double jins, saggy breasts, pregnant women are okay. I need fat. I mean ridiculously fat.’ Tighten on Chris Farley as Lorne’s line, as Lorne’s line repeats.” So now we’re tightening on Chris’s face.”’ Ridiculously fat, ridiculously fat.’ Widened to reveal Lorne still next to Chris Farley. He has been saying this line over and over. So he pretended it was a voiceover, but he’s actually just saying it over. ‘Ridiculously fat, ridiculously fat, ridiculously fat,’ ‘All right enough!’ Chris interrupts him. ‘We get it!’ The set darkens. Chris is in a spotlight. Chris sings. ‘Why must I always be the fat guy?’ I’m making up a tune right now. ‘Why must I dance the fatty dance? There’s a whole world of thin people that I could play, if you’ll only give me half a chance.’ Over Chris Farley’s shoulder: Photo of Chris Farley as mocked up as Pee Wee Herman appears. ‘I can do a wicked Pee Wee Herman…’ Photo switches to Chris as Richard Gere. ‘I can play a delicious Richard Gere.’ Switches to Chris with curly hair and Isotoner gloves. ‘Ah, but no one will see my Dan Marino. Just because my belly goes out to here.’” Rhymes with Richard Deere. “As Chris continues singing, Lorne and Tracy off stage. Tracy reads from Pad. ‘How about Drew Carey?’ ‘Not fat enough.’ ‘The guy from Blues Traveler?’ ‘Yawn.’ ‘Fred Flintstone?’ ‘Been done.’ ‘Hardy?’ ‘Who’s your Laurel?’ Tracy shrugs. Chris is still singing. ‘So hear my tender plea. Oh, won’t you let me be?’ And then a picture of Chris as Jenny McCarthy appears. ‘Jenny McCarthy for you.’ Chris warmly acknowledges applause. Lorne runs up with Tracy trailing. ‘Chris, you’re a hit.’ ‘What did you do? I was just myself, Lorne.’ ‘You mean fat?’ Chris nods and they hug. Lauren turns to Tracy. ‘You eat…’” Oh my God. “He turns to Tracy and says, ‘You eat some bonbons. Tracy nods and runs off as Chris hugs Lorne again.” Wow. That’s the end of it.
I want an entire podcast with these things that you have written. That’s amazing. I mean, you didn’t remember writing this, but just to hear that this could have gotten on.
You know what? I remembered when I, when I heard Lorne say, “Where’s the fat black guy?” I remember being at read-through and feeling uncomfortable. Even though I called, I had Chris call him out on being crude. I felt uncomfortable even just making Lorne say it at read through. But there it is. It made me laugh at the time. And it’s making me laugh, maybe not for the right reasons now.
It was a long time ago. But just to hear these things that could have gotten on, I’m sure the Minnesota Fats thing…
I mean, I was basically, obviously what I was doing was making a comment on how Chris is being exploited for being fat and that I mean honestly, that’s that’s what I’m getting out of reading this is that it’s mocking the show and the comedy world for just going to “the fat guy well’ over and over and over and then creating just this absurd joke that he can play Jennifer Aniston or whoever Richard Gere, which he obviously couldn’t, but it was not, you know, it could easily be misinterpreted as saying all Chris can do is be fat guys, but I don’t think that was the point.
I wish it got to dress, but you got the two sketches on.
Oh, my God. I used to write, in my later years, I would write these deconstructing sketches with Lorne in the background way too frequently. I can’t believe I just read that for you.
Just to have the database to see all the other stuff that did not get on. You were there with the Sharon Stone monologue, and this only aired on the East Coast. I actually have a videotape of it, and I don’t think it’s ever been posted online. But she gets heckled. There’s four people in the audience that are protesting for a gay rights organization. You hear somebody yell “Security” because they’re going on for 10 seconds. And it sounds like that’s Lorne’s voice.
Right. It was obviously switched for air. It was obviously switched for, not for air for the reruns. So no one’s ever seen it again.
And the West Coast has changed as well, I believe.
Probably. I wonder if I can find it on this database. It’s not something I would play publicly, though.
I think Lorne’s the one that yells “Security.” It sounds like him, and it’s like 10 seconds of them heckling and nothing’s being done about this.
And why were they heckling her? I don’t…
I believe it was Basic Instinct and the portrayal of a character, a gay portrayal.
Ah, right.
It was definitely the first time I ever saw anything like that. And it really did throw off the rest of the show, the momentum and just the energy from the audience. I thought that was somewhat noticeable.
Yeah, it was weird because I remember…
You and Sandler wrote that sketch, right? About the bar, you guys at the… It was like Farley and Sandler?
Yeah, that was my… I’m sure Adam helped me write it. But yes, that ended up being the first sketch of the night. It was the last sketch of the dress rehearsal, and then it did really well and was moved all the way up. And it did pretty well. I think it did pretty well on the real show.
For people that aren’t me, can you have described that sketch? It was really funny. Sandler wasn’t getting on a lot. I mean, he was just, he was still early on.
I’m pretty sure it was just guys talking about, they see this attractive woman at a bar and, you know, one of them’s nervous and the other one’s like, “Hey, man, it’s all in the approach.” And then “Here, watch and learn” kind of thing. And then they just go up there and it was just different versions of ridiculous comedy versions of “homina homina homina” [From The Honeymooners].
Yeah they’re stumbling around, Farley and Sandler. And then he says Sandler’s like, “Pencil?” and he…
(Imitating Sander) “Oh beautiful… you want to touch? Ohhh.” I’m looking at the database and I’m the only credited writer of that sketch, but I’m pretty positive that somebody helped me with it.
I always thought it was you and Sandler.
Probably Sandler. I don’t know.
That’s an example of a sketch that it, when it re-ran, that you used the dress rehearsal version and not the live…
We did?
100%.
Okay.
When it re-aired. I thought both played well, but maybe, I don’t know, played maybe better at dress, but it could definitely tell that there were just very little things here and there. But yeah, that was just something that I did notice.
Interesting. I don’t remember that. But I could definitely see that. It definitely happened where, you know, if something played hotter at a dress rehearsal, we would use the dress audience.
Norm Macdonald told me that the cast and writers were able to suggest hosts, possible hosts, to Lorne. Did you ever pitch a host and actually get a host on.
I don’t remember ever doing that while I was at the show. I remember later, I definitely remember asking, I would like Stephen Colbert to host the show.
I don’t know if he would have said yes to it.
At one point, I wrote to him a few years ago and he said, yeah, he’s earned it. It’s time or whatever, but it never happened.
That would have been amazing. People don’t even know, other than Carvey, how good he is on impressions. I mean, he just doesn’t, his range of that character stuff.
Yeah. Another person I, I mean, maybe it’s too late, but I really wanted Serena Williams to host. She would have been excellent, yeah. I thought she would have been a very dynamic and somebody who’s like a larger than life sports figure that everybody knows about. and it seemed like, you know, she really earned the right to host Saturday Night Live and I think she would have been great. Controversially, years ago, I wanted John McEnroe to host.
He’s friends with Lorne.
Yeah, he’s been on the show a few times, but he never got to host. I wanted him to host.
He would have been really really good. He was, yeah, took him Johnny Carson, took him ten years to finally do the show, The Tonight Show. He wasn’t really doing a lot of stuff.
Oh, I remember wanting Pee Wee to come back.
Oh that would have been note—when he did the thing and…
It was, well, not immediately after the thing, but like a year later or something, I felt like time had passed and he was starting to emerge again. Maybe it was after the, maybe when it was when he came back and did that very brief appearance on the MTV Awards or something.
Oh, “Did you hear any good jokes lately” and stuff. That would have been…
Yeah, yeah.
The ratings, if that would have happened, if he would have come back. And he was a Groundling. I mean, he can do the character stuff.
Well, I mean, yeah, but he also he hosted as Pee -Wee once before, and I guess maybe Lorne just thought once was enough.
Yeah, he did it once. I think it was like, was it 85 when you were there?
Yes, it was like my third show.
Would you ever do fake pitches when the guest was there? And if not, who were the funniest people that did the fake pitches? I heard Nealon, Kevin Nealon was very funny with fake pitches. Was that a thing when you were there?
When I was at SNL, for the majority of my time there, Tom Davis was the funniest. He would have the funniest one -sentence ideas. And I don’t know if he was doing it as fake pitches. I feel like sometimes He would actually try and write stuff up, and sometimes it would work, and sometimes it wouldn’t. Maybe he was doing stuff that was cannon fodder at times, but there was something about the combination of his ideas being really silly and his kind of incredibly laid back attitude as he was pitching them with total confidence that made them even funnier. Because that was his persona was, kind of, you know, I mean, I used him on Conan.
Oh, yeah.
He played “Dippy the Hippie” and, uh… He was a great performer and I loved using him on the Conan show. But he was like the J.B. Smooth of that era. Like J.B., who didn’t have nearly as long a storied career at SNL as Tom Davis, but I always thought he was hilarious and I was completely befuddled why he wasn’t on the show.
Yeah, he didn’t get much on this show in terms of sketches, either.
No, he didn’t get much on it. I don’t, but he had crazy ideas, not unlike the ones he pitches to Larry on Curb all the time.
Yeah, funny, funny, man.
Yeah, I wasn’t around for those Monday meetings, but that’s what I heard, the J.B, everybody waited for J.B. to pitch his ideas. Like, I wouldn’t make stuff, I would go half. I would really, like, I would almost aggressively bomb at those meetings, because I made up a term: “Monday’s hero, Saturday’s goat.” Back then, GOAT didn’t mean greatest of all time. The opposite. It meant the person who lost the game for the team. But I always felt like if they knew my premise on Monday, the level of expectation would be distorted on Wednesday when they heard it at the tape and read.
I heard that that would sometimes with the last, in your opinion at the read -through, did the funniest stuff always get picked, the stuff that got the most left did it almost always get picked, or was that not the case sometimes?
Usually stuff that killed got picked, but sometimes there was just too much stuff. And every now and then there’d be stuff that killed that didn’t get picked, and I would be frustrated or the writer, who I ever wrote writer was involved would get frustrated. You know, it’s a very complicated. It’s not an easy situation to throw people into. Comedy is so subjective. And then there would be, you’re basically doing it for not just the writers and the performers, but also for the crew. And you just never know what, you know, Jack Handey pieces times would bomb. And I felt like sometimes it was because there was like a prejudice against him from the crew. And that’s what led to me asking Lorne to take names off the, Lorne and Downey. I asked them to take names off the scripts for read through.
I heard about that. How long did that last?
Lasted like as long as I ended up writing for the show and then it was reinstated maybe a year or two after. Certainly by the time the new regime came in in 1995, it was restored and never changed back.
Those initials are so important now. And when you left the show, if you had somebody the right person’s initials on that added and stuff, but things changed. A few things we talked about the first time you were on. And I just wanted to give some context to the listeners. “Inhibited Dance Party,” which you wrote for Kelsey Grammer. Can you just describe what that sketch? Because I kind of glossed over it.
I barely remember it, but I believe it was a dance party-type show. There were a lot of those on television at the time. They were kind of, like, American Bandstand was the original, where, you know, it’s like teenagers, young people, dancing to contemporary hits. And in this case, it was all about people who dance kind of the way I would, which was, just… self consciously.
They weren’t really into it. Sander hosted the fictional show, with you and Michelle in the background.
Yeah, I’m sure we were good at it.
Yeah, that was Kelsey Grammer, Dwight Yoakam. “The Pinky Ring” for Joe Pesci, we mentioned but didn’t describe. Can you just describe it a little bit?
It was based on, just this thing that I think people do when they look at themselves in a mirror in a clothing store and they’re trying something on and then they just start moving around and it just extrapolated from, that just imagining yourself in different positions. And then I just extrapolated and just had Joe Pesci doing it. I just thought it was hilarious, the idea of, that all he’s doing, all he’s doing and he’s got his clothes on, and all he’s doing this with different pinky rings. That was the first thing that made me laugh. But then the second thing was just doing that thing that you do when you’re wearing clothes, looking at yourself in different positions, and then kind of just imagining yourself at a party or whatever or at a social situation and how you would be and just taking it way too far and having Pesci just starting, you know, conversations and just silent.
Yeah, the conversations and him mouthing words you can’t say on network television, having it like he’s arguing with somebody and…
Yeah, and then he gets carried away, because he’s Joe Pesci, and he gets into an angry argument with the laugh. It’s one of my favorites and it’s Jim, I think it’s Jim Downey’s favorite of anything I’ve ever done for the show.
Oh, really? Pinky Ring? It did really well. Same episode, “The Criminals Watch the News.” I just want to give some context. This is a TV newscaster that says, “Daring daytime robbery at Midtown Bank, this and other stories coming up next at 6.” And these are robbers. I know Sandler and Pesci and a bunch of people, the TV is on when the home that they’re robbing and they see that, so they’re trying to wait for more information. And then this commercial keeps coming on, which is, I’m a hungry puppy dog.
I’m a hungry puppy. (Laughs)
So maybe I just described the whole thing.
I’m pretty sure it was the first time I ever did anything remotely like a doggy voice on television. You know, it was without the Russian accent, but it had this quality to it that Triumph has a little bit, especially the original Triumph. If you watch the first time I ever did Triumph, he’s a lot more slow and deliberate and this voice goes this much into the you know because i was still like doing that heavy doggy thing
That was a funny sketch, the happy puppy dog thing.
But yeah it was, uh, I definitely had help on with that with either Conan or Greg or Bob or all of them.
They were gone by then.
Okay then it was… no, they weren’t all gone. Were they? Yeah maybe they were. Maybe it was… Maybe you’re right. Maybe Rob Schneider helped me write it.
I want to mention real quick. Give Rob credit. People do not know how good he was as a sketch writer. I know people think of him, you know he does these movies and hangs out with Sandler. Even the Harvard, Ivy League people were in awe of Schneider as a sketch writer. I mean, he did that what was it, “Ed Glosser, Trivial Psychic.” I mean his sketch ability was high, correct?
Trivial Psychic was hilarious. A perfect Christopher Walken sketch. Just a beautiful… He also wrote “Tiny Elvis.”
He came up with “Massive Headwound Harry,” the concept.
Massive Headwound Harry was his sketch.
Yeah.
It’s his sketch. The only thing…
I mean, Tom Davis did the dog.
The dog was a genius. Maybe Tom Davis came up with the dog beat entirely. Yeah, I think I said that in somewhere. That was Tom Davis’ contribution to the sketch. And then the dog,… Okay, so I wrote that… I wrote it with Adam, the robbers sketch. Oh, no, that’s Pinky Ring. Wait, let me look at the Robbers’ Sketch.
Oh, wow. Sandler contributed to Pinky.
He definitely, I mean, he definitely added some stuff. Oh, look at this. Robbers, according to this, Jack Handey and Conan O ‘Brien.
No! That is fascinating.
I must have either written it earlier or I just called Conan. Does Conan have an additional sketch credit on that show?
Conan was not at the show at the time.
No, I know. This is 1992. He’s definitely gone by then.
That doesn’t make any sense.
But I’m just wondering if… If I had written this sketch in the past with Jack and Conan, or if…
Yeah, you might have.
Or if, I don’t remember writing it for anybody but Pesci. But I might’ve.
That’s interesting that Conan got… I know that Odenkirk was added to Motivational Speaker, “extra material.”
Yeah, yeah. I bet Conan came up with “I’m a hungry puppy dog.” I bet he came up with that particular choice of commercial because there were a bunch of commercials, but that was the one that kept going over and over.
The crooks were just, the robbers just were kept wanting to hear the news.
And then it’s like, “I’m a happy puppy dog.”
So funny with all of them. I cannot believe that All You Can Eat, your sketch group from Chicago that got you hired, that there’s stuff on YouTube that exists. I had no idea. I mean, I had heard about the show. You get these rave reviews from the Chicago Tribune, and you’re doing the show at 83, 84, “All You Can Eat in The Temple or Dooooom,” several O’s in Doom, so you do not get sued. And the Japanese couple, with you and Jill Talley doing the talking in Japanese, but only with brands of Japanese products. And then the medical school interview with, it was so funny, the medical school interview. Did you use that in your SNL packet?
Yes.
You do Ed Sullivan.
They really liked that sketch.
You do, can you just do the premise of the sketch? I mean, this is real like you at one point.
Well, it was based on, it was based on just this s*it that I would hear when I was a pre -dental student, that, Oh, we like a renaissance man. We want, we don’t want you to just take biology,” and, you know, because I, even when I was going to defer my admission to NYU by a year, they were like, “No, it’s good. You’ll learn, get out there in the world. We want renaissance men.” And that was it. Just that little bit triggered the premise, which was this interview with, you know, the Dean of Admissions for a medical school. And he’s asking the questions that are so absurdly unrelated to medicine and about trivial stuff like, you know, doing Ed Sullivan or whatever, or just random questions about the Tigris and Euphrates.
And you flip the question around and you just basically state what he said just as a statement.
Yeah, that was, that’s, that happens at least once, yeah.
That’s such a funny thing, but it’s on YouTube. I think it’s like a,
The whole sketch is on YouTube?
Not the whole thing, but it’s a compilation that they have of, um, the show.
Yeah, somewhere I have the entirety of that show.
And that’s what really got you, right? Franken and Davis showed up right um unannounced? They were shooting something in Chicago?
No well, my friend Dave Reynolds who ended up writing co -writing Finding Nemo, he was somebody who was cast. He was in my comedy group, and he was cast by Franken and Davis to be in this um movie that they were shooting, called One More Saturday Night, that took place in Minnesota, I think it was supposed to be… but it was shot in Chicago. And Dave got to be friends with Al and Tom and told him he was in a comedy group. And Al and Tom, are like, “Ah, yeah, let’s come out. Let’s check it out.” Yeah. And so they came one night, and they were incredibly complimentary and kind. And we all went out for beers after at a German bar and had a great time. And that was it. And I was like, That’s nice little validation. Al Franken and Tom Davis were comedy heroes of mine. I’d seen them perform. That summer they also did a couple of nights at Zanies in Chicago, and I went and saw them and they were brilliant. Deadpan, Bob and Ray era style comedy that I loved. And then two or three weeks later, I’m reading TV Guide, because that’s the only thing you ever read back then for any kind of industry news. And there’s a little article that says, Lorne Michaels is returning to Saturday Night Live and he’s hired Al Franken and Tom Davis as his producers. I was in disbelief and just literally, it was the closest I’ve ever felt to like hitting the ceiling. Like I, whatever that expression means, That’s how I felt. Like my spirit rise out of my body. I could not believe that the show that I had obsessed on for 10 years was now going to be run by people who had seen me and liked me. You know, then we got to audition, three of us.
They contacted you?
Well, we all had the same agent, this woman Ann Geddes in Chicago. And so So Hugh Cowley, Doug Dale, who ended up being the host of TV Fun House on Comedy Central. And me, we did this one bit where Clint Eastwood hosting a variety show, and he introduces Pee Wee Herman and Howie Mandel doing “Who’s on First,” which was just the absurdity of visual and prop comedians doing this incredibly detailed, you know, language bit. And, of course, Pee Wee and Howie tear it to shreds. And I recently showed it to Howie Mandel because I did his podcast. And I played Howie, of course, because I kind of looked like him. And then Doug Dale ended up getting very close to being hired. I think we talked about that.
We did. It was him and Lovitz neck and neck and Lovitz got it.
Yep, and Lovitz did great.
Then you did a packet, right, on top of that?
Yes, then I was asked to, so then Franken, like, asked around other cast members, and they attributed a lot of the writing to me, even though it was a pretty collaborative show, but I guess I was the, if there had to be a primary writer of the show, it was my stuff, and so I put together a packet combining some of the sketches that I wrote primarily for that show that were primarily mine and then a couple of other things and that’s where Jim Downey got to discover my stuff and he liked me enough and so I made it and I probably wouldn’t have, but back then the Writers Guild, there are a couple of things that were miraculously happening that I don’t think I would have ever gotten hired otherwise had they not, which was, first of all, the show had an entire staff turnover because Lorne Michaels took over for Dick Ebersol. With it, he wanted to start from scratch. So, entirely new cast and an entirely new writing staff. So there were all these slots open, and most of them obviously went to veterans who Lauren had worked with or Jim Downey and Al Franken and Tom Davis had worked with. Lorne had done The New Show, which was a prime time sketch comedy show. He had sort of dipped his toes back into the water in 1984. That show wasn’t a success. It was highly conceptual comedy writing, but many brilliant writers, George Meyer, Jack Handey, Jim Downey, Al Franken, Tom Davis all transferred over to SNL. And there were just a few slots open, and John Swartzwelder got one, and Bruce McCullough, Mark McKinney, and me all got hired, But as apprentice writers, which wouldn’t happen today. The Writers Guild doesn’t allow anybody to be paid less than scale. But I thought, you know, I understand like, okay, maybe there’s a limited amount of time where you’re allowed to pay these guys less than scale. That would be perfectly fair. Like you don’t want to take advantage of them. But it allowed them, within their budget, to hire more people give more people a champ
And now the cast the writers is like 24 people or something i could be off on that, the writers now but back then you didn’t have as many
I don’t know how many writers there are. It was a much smaller staff, and a smaller budget and Bruce, Mark and I all got, like, you know 60 percent of a writer’s salary. So if it hadn’t happened, at least one of us wouldn’t have been hired.
It’s amazing how it worked. Jill Talley, when she was in the sketch group, you were all interviewed in the Tribune. And she said that a bunch of you were in, I guess, background. It was a Mr. T special. Were you in that?
Mr. T did a shoot a TV movie in Chicago. I don’t remember what it was called, I swear to God, I don’t remember if I was in the background or not. I know some of these guys were. I literally can’t remember if I was one of them. I definitely was an extra in, we all were in Al Franken and Tom Davis’s movie, One More Saturday Night. And I found it recently. And it’s a scene where Michelle and I are dancing in the background.
You danced on camera before “Uninhbited.” I talked to somebody who worked on Staten Island, the Judd Apatow film, which I really enjoyed. And the person that worked on the movie told me, you came in with all these different ways to play your character. And they were so impressed with your preparation. I mean, normally maybe people come in with maybe one or two ways to play it. But basically, they said every shot you would give them something else to play with. First of all, I just thought you were great in that. I mean, they gave you this dramatic part. I’m guessing you didn’t have to audition.
I didn’t audition, but I, he did a table read of it with an audience. And I played like five different parts. It was in New York. And I was there in Laura Benanti and Pete obviously and Bill Burr, obviously. A few of us were like playing multiple roles. I think this was one of them, the pharmacist, but I played like a restaurant guy. I played the guy who gets shot at the end. You know, I was doing different versions of New York accents for all of them, because I assumed that’s what they wanted. I don’t know if the person you’re speaking about was talking about that or if they were talking about, because I don’t remember doing much, I feel like once we were shooting, I thought I was basically doing one thing, but I don’t remember. Maybe…
They were saying when it was the actual shooting, you were doing it. You were giving them different options and with things and stuff.
That’s nice.
In your opinion, in maybe just like, I don’t know, a couple sentences or more, who is Lorne Michaels and what did he mean to you? What does he mean to you?
Wow. He’s very (laughs) there’s so many things I could say. I mean, you know, he was somebody that was iconic to me before I met him. Produced the show that the reason I wanted to be a performer. It’s the reason I thought… the show gave me so much joy when I was a kid that I finally realized that acting, and showbiz in general was a worthy profession. Because of the capacity to just make people happy. And then when I met him, like at first, uh, I was very intimidated by him. And you know, I impersonated him, as a way of, like, just like when I was a ten year old kid, I would draw pictures of my teachers. The fact that I could impersonate Lorne well was a way of, it was cathartic, but it was a way of making friends at the show. Like, it was just a way of getting easy laughs.
You were the first one to do him, right? You were the first one to do Lorne?
I think Mark McKinney was the first one, and his was a dead-on accurate one. I was the first one to start doing him in a cartoony way, but Carvey was kind of doing it at the same time. And then I didn’t realize it. And then I asked him, “Do you do Lorne?” And then he just did a Lorne for me. And he just, “Hello, yes, this week on the show…” He had this weird move, which Lorne didn’t do, but it was a perfectly hilarious extrapolation. You know, and I just made my Lorne cartoonier and cartoonier, and it was like a coping mechanism. You know, it was just a way of dealing with the boss. It was something that over the years, as I got more relaxed at the show, because I was the nerdiest nerd possible, which I think I explained to you, and I don’t think, I don’t think Lorne was very impressed with my overall demeanor, just being kind of scared and needy all the time in my own way. And then I think we had a complicated relationship, as many people do with him when I was younger because I got to be kind of bratty and opinionated because I just had no perspective on life, but nothing bad had ever happened to me. And I just, so I think I just kind of, didn’t really understand authority and respect it as much as I should have at the time. Then, toward my last years in the show, the time I had being in the room with him, as opposed to, even though I didn’t like, even though I begged out of it because I didn’t like the way people were being political in there, but I got to see a side of him that I didn’t really understand before that. I got to see him struggle with the decisions, a more human side of him. And I think he just got to know me better, and we ended up getting along really well. By the time I left, I felt very close to him in a lot of ways. And like I said, when he offered me the producing gig meant a lot to me. And when I wanted to write for the show to help it, it was because of him. I wanted to help him. Because I felt like I owed everything to him in a lot of ways. Him and Jim Downey, basically. And I loved the show. And I loved how much he loved the show. And I loved how much it meant to him. So it meant a lot to me in 1995 to write those two sketches because the show was really on the ropes and I really wanted to help get it off to a good start and the fact that those sketches were successful in a way, those are two of the most meaningful things I ever wrote for the show for that reason. And then I got to go back as a cartoon writer. And at that point, we had this relationship where everybody else was resentful. Not everybody, but a lot of people were resentful of how close we seemed to be, or at least, you know, not, I was never close like, “Hey, Lorne, how you doing? Let’s go out.” You know, I never got over my shyness and, you know, my ultimate awe of being at Saturday Night Live. But I did feel very comfortable with him professionally and somewhat personally, and there were people at the show who were like, “Why does he have that? Why does he get an instant spot on the show? And you don’t even know what he’s writing,” which was really the ultimate compliment for me. He would say to me on Saturdays,” I just want to be surprised. I don’t even want to know what you’re doing.”
He told people you earned it. He said, “Robert earned this.”
Yes, he did say that. He told me at one point, he said, “People are upset. There are some people who are upset.” Like, “Why does Robert have this automatic spot on the show that eats up time that could be going to other people?” And he said, “Well, he’s earned it.” Which I never really wanted. I wanted each individual cartoon to earn the right on its own. And I think they did for the most part. And once in a blue moon, one would get cut, which I hoped was the exception that proved the rule that the others were deserving. And I think I’ve told you that like when I did The Dana Carvey Show, that was another moment where I started to understand Lorne even more, because suddenly I was kind of the Lorne of that show. And there were people who I had hired literally 10 weeks earlier who had, you know, their careers were fluctuating and they really needed a job, and I wasn’t doing it as a favor, I was hiring them because I thought they were all brilliant and I didn’t want anybody to feel like they owed me anything, but at the same time I was a little bit half amused and half distraught that people would get angry at me because I realize that that’s just the nature of putting on a sketch show that every week you’re going to disappoint people. They’re not in the show enough, or such a sketch they wrote that they really loved didn’t get chosen. And the fact that you have to be the decision maker, a lot of stress comes with that that I hadn’t anticipated. I figured, “Man, if these people who were like out of work 10 weeks ago are given me side eye at times, then that’s what Lorne’s been dealing with all these years.” So I literally called him up just to say, “I’m sorry. I’ve never really understood what went with this job.” And I remember him laughing at the time. I think he appreciated it, but I think he was also amused that someone…
Finally acknowledged it.
Would acknowledge it in that way of just saying, “I’m sorry, I never got it.” But that was the case. So, yeah, I’ve always had since then this deep affection for Lorne, even though I was still perfectly capable of making fun of the show and making fun of him and some of my most vicious stuff. Like that Chris Farley sketch that I read, or the cartoons that I would do that sometimes would make fun of the show, or the cartoons that I would do that would have Lorne in them–The 25th anniversary show, for God’s sakes, was all about Lorne, and it was making fun of mostly the 15th anniversary show, which I thought had a little bit of, was a little bit too self-congratulatory and formal, a lot of podium stuff, and I assumed the 25th was going to be similar, so I was kind of making fun of that, you know, and the hierarchy of who sits where, and I wrote a whole song about it, and it definitely made Lorne uncomfortable, which I felt bad about, and I remember being in the audience, watching the show, And thinking, “This is not at all like the 15th. This is great.” Bill Murray’s starting the show and he’s doing Nick the Lounge Singer and Larraine’s in the sketch and Aykroyd’s in the sketch. And people are really going for it this time. This isn’t self-congratulatory. This is the opposite. And then they did these tributes to the people who had passed away since, you know, they did one to Chris and they did one to Gilda and they did one to Phil. And that’s the one that really got me, because it was the remainder of the cast that I had really worked with. And they’re all, like, holding hands, and I just remember Jan and Lovitz, who were the closest to him, just gripping each other so tight, and it just felt like kids without their dad. Cause Phil really was like kind of the calming dad figure of that group. And I was so touched that I left my seat at one point during a commercial break and went up to where the writers were, and said, I don’t think we should run my cartoon. I was getting really emotional. I said, “I don’t think it’s appropriate. This show’s great. This show’s really great. It’s, like, I don’t want to make fun of it.” And a couple of them said, “Ah, I don’t worry about it. Your cartoon’s not mean. It’s playful.” And I was like, “Okay!” (laughs) Because deep down, I didn’t want to, I didn’t really, really want this to happen, but…
It played well. People loved it. I mean, and it speaks a lot to Lorne that he left it in.
I don’t know, but I mean, I felt, I felt strong enough at the moment that I was going to voice this. I was going to voice it. And if somebody said, you know what, you’re right, then I was going to go to Lorne. But they talked me out of it, so I didn’t go to Lorne. And Lorne had Alec Baldwin set it up. And like literally, he had Alec Baldwin said everybody makes fun of the boss. He tempered it. And then the cartoon ran. And I actually didn’t think it killed that hard. I think people were.
Maybe it was inside, but it still got laughs.
I think people were… No, that was the audience to appreciate an inside joke, but I think people were, like, a little bit afraid to laugh.
Really?
I think so. I think, like, you know…
He was in the audience, which never happens. He was watching that…
Yes!
…from the audience for the first time ever. So maybe that was part of it.
Yeah, he was very like he was much more. He was in the cold open on the 15th, “Chevy, you got to fall again.”
That was funny.
Whatever it was, Chevy wants to fall. In this show, he kept a really low profile. And this cartoon, I think maybe people thought, ooh, this is heavy, making fun of Lorne on his own anniversary show. But, you know, that’s, that was what I.
I thought I made Lorne look good, just a good sport. That for me personally made him look.
Well, no, it did. I mean, but at the time, this was like my thing. Like, “Man, I, no, I’m not going to be reverent, man. That’s not what the show’s supposed to be, man. This is what the show’s supposed to be.” So, so that’s what I ran with. And it wasn’t like, necessarily against Lorne. It was just more just about puncturing the balloon of pretentiousness that you know and like whatever Lorne was hawking, and l uh you know the talking Dennis Miller doll or whatever there was. I mean I did feel like the show was being pimped and merchandised too much. Like, I was a purist because i wanted the show to be like it was in the 70s and I was still holding on to that in 1999 and I felt like, “Oh, it’s gone commercial, and now they sell sh*t merchandise.” You know, I’m sure I still had some bitterness over Chris Farley and the way that went down. And I didn’t like that they wanted to do a Chris Farley “Best Of” right away. I thought that was exploitive.
Tim Meadows did a good job in the cold, in opening the special. I can’t even imagine.
I don’t know. I don’t know. I had a whole thing where I wanted it to be, I wanted to address his addiction and I wanted to address what could have been, more it could have been done.
You thought I was too soon? Because it was, it was almost like, yeah, they had it like the next week, I think, maybe or two.
No, I know. Tim’s thing was more like, “Well, we want to remember the good parts” or whatever it was. And I was like, in my head. I was like, “No, I don’t want to remember. I want people to know why this happened and that more could have been done to…”
I cannot believe that his representation did not drop him. That, to me, is like, that would have been something that I feel like he would have, he would have panicked.
Well, you know, I mean, it’s, it’s one of those things where you just feel like, uh,
I mean in a loving way that would have been a loving thing for them to do in my opinion is just to show the seriousness.
Well, that’s why you know, yeah, perhaps. I mean, that was the thinking I had when as I wrote in the book or said in the book that I wanted us to fire him as a public humiliation so that he would have to take this seriously because Lorne had very successfully helped him three years earlier or whatever.
Numerous times, Lorne helped him.
Well, certainly the time he suspended him from the show.
It was only one show that we know of that he missed, which was Danny DeVito hosted in January of 90. I think it was 93, and it was he came back the next week for Harvey Keitel and he had one small part in the restroom sketch where…
I thought he missed more than one show. I think he missed like three or three or four shows.
Did he? He did. Okay, he did.
I think so.
You’re probably right, I mean you were there. I wasn’t.
I’m pretty sure it was in the ’91, ’92 season that that happened. And then he was sober, for like a number of years, which is like unthinkable now, but he was. And the fact that it worked was my impetus of like, “Well, okay, this is what he cares about most, you know, and that’s what you got to take it away from him.” He doesn’t love himself enough or whatever it was. I don’t want to psychoanalyze him, but that was the thing that I thought was what we needed to do. And anyway, so whatever, I’m just, I’m just rambling because I… yes, some of my cartoons were informed by, you know, my, my own cynicism about different things, including Chris. But at the time, ultimately, I didn’t want it to hurt Lorne, and I didn’t think it was. I thought it would play affectionate at the end. And at the end, he gets this big applause. He sings, “It’s my show.” And then the audience started applauding before the sketch was over. And in my mind, and I told this to Lorne, You know, at the rap party afterward, I said, they were applauding you. They’re not applauding the cartoon. That was your curtain call because you hadn’t appeared at the show.
Did he get that? Did he understand that?
He kind of laughed. I don’t know if he agreed with me or not. I don’t know. But that’s how I felt to me. And it made me very happy. It made me feel like it was playing as affectionate and it was playing as. But you know what? I have a different perspective on Lauren than other people in the audience. I, you know, I knew them better than maybe half the people in the audience and then will not as well as another as the other half of people in the audience. I was somewhere in the middle.
As Bob Odenkirk said, you saved the show. I mean, your writing saved the show.
I don’t believe it.
I 100% do believe that. The most commercial stuff that played big during that era was yours. In terms of people that are in comedy, they love Jack Handey’s stuff, but in terms of your stuff, they love it and it played more commercially than Jack Handey. And a number of Ted Williams.
I get that, and I know I was an important contributor. I feel great about it, but I feel like the show would have survived without me. I feel like the cast saved the show. I feel Like Dana Carvey, Phil Hartman, and Jan Hooks saved the show.
Yeah, I mean, the cast was amazing. I do want to point out there were some weeks where you and Norm, your cartoon and Norm on Updates, I knew consistently those were the two times I was going to laugh at me watching the show.
Well, because those were writer-oriented bits more than character-driven stuff. And you’re right, at that time, there was a lot of recurring character stuff. A lot of what Jim Downey would say was “wacky person in a normal situation.” And that’s not the kind of stuff that comedy writing fans necessarily gravitate to. And that’s what you are. You’re a comedy writing fan. And so am I for the most part. But I had enough of the affection for performers that Lorne recognized. And that’s why I think he wanted me to produce that year, because he knew that I, you know, “Robert loves performers.” And like I said, the last time that I, you know, he said “You make performers look good and that’s what’s going to make the show look good and make you look good.”
And the cast was amazing. I do want to point out if you were there, I don’t think as many Groundling people would have been hired in the one, the first like, I think three or four years. I mean, the number, because they didn’t hire anybody since Julia Sweeney. They had Siobhan Fallon was featured for a little bit. According to Chris Kattan, he just said that SNL thought, you know, it was hack, over at The Groundlings. They really didn’t go there much to draw people. But…
I think there was a perception within the writing side of the show that, of the two, Second City versus the Groundlings, that the Second City writing was more sophisticated, you know, but I didn’t really know The Groundlings well enough to really have an informed opinion of that. I mean, I was a Chicago guy. I used to watch these guys, John Kapelos, Rick Thomas, Lance Kinsey, Meagen Fay, they would do these improv sets at 11 o ‘clock for free. You didn’t have to go pay for the regular show. Anybody could come and watch the Improv set. And it was a very beautiful improv community friendly aspect of the city of Chicago that the hottest show in the town would literally let students and comedy fans watch them improvise for free every single night.
Wow.
And I went many, many nights, and was heavily inspired by those guys. And that’s what, you know, because I didn’t really love improv as a performance thing. I didn’t like games. Like, “We need a place. We need a this.” And, or, you know, there were a lot of games that were, “I want to do it in the style of who? Henry David Thoreau, okay, and we need a location and an occupation.” These guys would improvise scenes, they wouldn’t really improvising them. They were kind of, they had premises that they were working on, and they would kind of take suggestions from the audience and just shoehorn, based on your suggestion of a doctor, we take you to… and then they would do a sketch that had to do with a doctor that they’d been working on. And they would improvise in front of the audience. They would work, they were doing scene work, live in front of the audience. And that, I thought, was really, really informative and an interesting way to write a sketch, like, because you’re finding layers that go beyond the premise and depth and texture and jokes. That was, um, got nothing to do with Lorne at this point.
Oh, no, no, we switched a little bit, but I think you answered the question with Lorne.
Yeah, okay. Let me say one more thing about Lauren. So what Lorne did that, I remember when Conan had to speak at Lorne getting the Mark Twain Award, he didn’t really have a thing, and I gave him the thing that I’ve always felt was an enormous contribution. As a comedy writer, Lorne was really revolutionary in that he allowed comedy writers to be their own bosses of the sketches that they wrote. And that was absolutely unheard of on television before Saturday Night Live. If you were a sketch writer on a variety show, you’re lucky if you’re even in the studio after you’ve written the sketch, much less calling the shots, telling the director or telling the set people what you want the set to look like, or wardrobe, but Lorne had every writer who came up with their sketch be the producer of that sketch. Not only was it invaluable in teaching people how to work in television, but it was incredibly generous. But what it also had the odd effect of doing was turning writers into, Tina Fey uses the word “monsters.” That might be a little strong, But writers kind of very quickly lose perspective as to like, no, no, you don’t realize that writers don’t normally get to do this. You know, after the first few times they do it and they have success, they’re like, “Hey,” you know, just like any creative person, they get a little bit of positive feedback and they get a lot of confidence with that tiny little bit of positive feedback. A lot of creative people are like that. They’ll go from, “I suck, I suck” to, no, no, that was pretty good….“Yeah, yeah, it really was. Why the f*ck wasn’t it chosen?” And there was, so the more confidence writers had by getting sketches on and successfully producing them, the more apt they were to have less respect for authority. That was an odd kind of byproduct of the creative freedom Lorne allowed for creative people.
It’s really true. It goes on today, and it’s a reason why I feel like sketch shows like Mad TV had problems, because the people—the writers–over there had very little say, and I talk to writers…
I hear that’s true. No, it’s a very smart strategy, I mean…
It should have been like that over there.
If someone is smart enough to come up with the idea and write the sketch, then that person’s probably smart enough to have a good sense of how they visualize the sketch, you know, and most writers can.
And he’ll put on stuff that he does not personally like because it does well at the table. And I give him a lot of credit, certain stuff that he might consider hack, he absolutely, I know, would put on for the audience would want it. And I just think the fact that he would put stuff on that maybe wasn’t his favorite stuff helped the show somewhat or, I don’t know, it played to the audience.
I think so. I mean, I think he appreciated good writing and dry humor as much as anybody, but he was, you know, wary of putting too much of that on because he felt like then the show would not have performance energy, and he was right about that.
Yeah, it’s amazing, his longevity. If you got offered the gig, you wouldn’t take it, would you, to take over for him?
They’ll never offer me the gig because I’m too old at this point. I mean, that’s the first reason. First reason is I’m too old. I’m in my 60s, and they should give it to somebody who’s going to be in it for at least 10 years or so.
At least.
Although, I mean, I don’t know how old Higgins is or Tina. These guys are probably deep into their 50s by now. But they’re younger than me, and that’s good enough. And no, I wouldn’t take it because I’ve never wanted it. I’ve never wanted to do it.
The show, I really feel like Mikey Day and Streeter [Seidel]… their sketches are on a level of what you would be doing. I mean, I feel like with the current show, I mean there’s a lot of funny writers over there and stuff. But in terms of sketch writing, when I see a sketch that I’m like, “Oh, my goodness,” it seems to be a lot of times them. But I’m glad it went more to a writing show.
We talked about the Beavis sketch, right? We talked about that.
Yeah.
Another great writer is, um, really funny writer is Andrew Dismukes. He always makes me laugh.
Yeah, he’s done very well.
He doesn’t, he’s not one of these guys who dazzles you with a lot of different voices and that kind of thing, but he’s , he’s always funny, and I guess a lot of the times he’s written the things that he’s in.
Him and then Dan Bulla with Sarah Sherman. I mean I really like some of his stuff.
Yes
But they have some really good people.
He’s very solid. No, I’m sure they have a lot of good writers there. They’re always…
Yeah, but I just like the fact, and this is just me. I know I’m not the majority, but they have the writers. They’re doing more concept, premise pieces and stuff. The stuff that I like a little bit more, it’s a good balance, I think, with what you guys were doing.
Absolutely. Yes, it’s not… I mean, if anything, you could criticize the show for not having enough recurring characters.
Oh, yeah, they took away the catchphrases and they took away, yeah, recurring.
Yeah, it almost feels like these things have been dismissed as being hacky and, to the point where they don’t even want to do them anymore. They do them on “Weekend Update.” Is this what we talked about last week?
No, I don’t think so, but they do that on Update?
It seems like that’s where you see recurring characters only is on Weekend Update.
I never thought of that.
And it’s because partly I think they feel less corny on Weekend Update because Weekend Update has sort of settled into this kind of vaudeville construct where Colin or Michael just sets people up and they get to just go forward with a straight man standing right next to them. And it’s an easily acceptable way to do character stuff. There’s a lot less struggle than having to set up an entire scenario and create a wacky person who then everybody has to react to earnestly. Everything’s taken a little less seriously at the Update desk.
They do a good job. I think they’re doing such a good job. Herb Sergant when he was doing Kevin Nealon, Jim Downey said that Herb negatively affected Nealon’s Update performance. Do you agree with that?
Again, it’s like that was… I guess I overlapped with Neelan my last year, doing Update, but I was not really involved in Update other than occasionally writing characters for, once in a blue moon, I would write a joke for Kevin, but…
And you did some commentaries as The Moron.
I did “The Moron’s Perspective” thing a couple of times. I wrote for Bennett Brauer, I wrote that thing for Chris.
I was there the one where he flies. I was there at the live show when he tries to fly and gets stuck in the cape? Oh, that was funny. I always wondered why you were there at the Helen Hunt episode, and why I know Conan would be going in every weekend at the show. But I always wondered why you were there. So you wrote that.
Was that the Flying Bennett Brauer episode?
Yeah, Helen Hunt Snoop Dogg. I was there. I was like, and I saw you afterwards, and I was like, what did Robert write out of this? But that makes sense.
That’s what I wrote, I guess. But yeah, I don’t really have an opinion on Herb. I mean, I wasn’t privy to what. I know that Dennis and Herb had a very, you know, they had a very functional working relationship. Dennis really drove the ship. And I guess Downey has suggested that once Dennis was out of the picture that Herb wanted to steer the ship, it may have had a negative influence on Kevin being, you know, restricted in his comedy and his approach to Weekend Update. but I I this is this is I don’t know
And possibly let in other writers throw in jokes. I mean, if you look at Norm McDonald’s first five to six shows, Herb is still there, and you can tell it’s it seems like a Herb Sargant Update. And then he was let go and that’s when norm started to be Norm. I just I felt um…
Okay.
Herb Sargant had an amazing run there He absolutely did. And that was just Jim Downey mentioned in the one thing. I just wasn’t sure. Yeah, you answered the question. I appreciate it.
I mean, Herb wrote for, he wrote for Steve Allen. Johnny Carson’s first head writer. Yeah, he was Johnny’s first head writer in New York.
I didn’t know that.
Dated Lauren Bacall. I mean, he had an interesting life.
Yeah. Oh, I know he was a playboy too. I know he was a playboy, which is, you know, we didn’t understand it because, you know, by the time we met him, he was like 65 and so he was hard to picture him that way. But, uh, but yes, I heard he was…
A ladies man.
He was a Lothario. He was like, he was a Lothario.
Yeah, thank you just for doing this. And I’ve known you forever. We met December of ‘93, so you can do the math. I can do the math. But, uh…
Well, 30 years and counting.
I can’t believe that. But you were so kind to me the first time I met you. You gave me your phone number at Conan, like, whenever you need anything. And, um, just such a kind, kind man.
I very much appreciated your fanhood and your input. Oh, I’m looking at Inhibited Dance Party, and Michelle and I cross right at the beginning. It’s so weird. Oh, there we are dancing. Oh, my God.
Yes, you should show her!
I will. I’m going to show my kids. Oh, there we are. Oh, that’s so funny. I love this.
That was a fun sketch. And that was just fun to see you guys in the background—“I know them!”
I don’t remember much about the sketch but I will watch it. (Laughs)
Melanie Hutsell does, like, this weird dance, I remember that, and I remember Sandler hosting.
Oh! Dance Party USA—that was the name of the popular show at the the time. Dance Party USA was on the USA Network, I think.
Oh, is that what it was?
So this was actually called Inhibited Dance Party USA.
Yeah, it was really, really funny. Thank you for being a pal. I can’t believe you gave me so much time and answered everything.
I know. I lost track of this being a podcast. We’re just two guys talking.
I’m probably going to do it in two parts, but just the Rosie O’Donnell read to me, I’m going to, like, I’m going to be pumped now for like a week. Like, I can’t believe that I got a read like that. That’s such a, I mean, it was such a funny sketch. And just to see you do everything on it.
That was weird to revisit. I haven’t done that since I got this, since I got this, whatever you call it, database. I haven’t, I haven’t looked from my old sketches and I’ve forgotten, I guess I’ve forgotten a lot of them too.
Thank you for everything. I can’t express your kindness over the years, and just that you did this with me and put up with all the technical.
No, no, it’s great. You’re incredibly knowledgeable and I’m learning a lot, just talking to you about stuff I forgot.
You’re right about the Star Trek. I am that guy. Oh, man.
It’s all right.
And somebody has to be him.
No, and you always had good comedy instincts too. So.
I really appreciate it. Take care, my friend. Show your family the Dance Party and um,
I will.
Yeah, you’re a rock star. Thanks for being my friend and I’ll talk to you later.
All the best, buddy.
Be good. Take care.
Bye bye.
