“Hugh, maybe that joke plays well at the Funny Bone in Omaha. This is network television, try to do better.”
To hear Hugh Fink tell it, he had it coming. But that didn’t make Lorne Michaels’ insult about a joke he hadn’t cleared with the SNL creator before it went to air go down any easier.
An Emmy-winning, seven-year veteran of Saturday Night Live’s writing staff (from 1995-2002), Fink was responsible for scores of memorable sketches, including “Larry King’s News and Views,” and Mr. Peppers (which was based on a character Chris Kattan developed at The Groundlings).
Fink went on to create and executive produce The Showbiz Show with David Spade, and served as founding head writer on Craig Ferguson’s Late Late Show.
On a return visit to Inside Late Night, Fink shares more stories from his SNL days, including the time a certain host backed out of the monologue Fink had written for him late in the game, leaving him to deliver a 90-second dud of a monologue instead.
Click the embed below to listen now, or find Inside Late Night on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Be sure to check out Hugh Fink’s website at hughfink.com, where you can sign up to receive information about his sketch writing classes and more.
Show Transcript
Hugh Fink, thanks for coming back.
Happy to be back, Mark Malkoff.
Are you going to be going to the 50th SNL? It’s coming up.
I’m super excited. I’m attending both the music celebration at Radio City on Valentine’s Day, which is a live broadcast, right? And then Sunday night is the primetime NBC special followed by what I think will be. The century’s greatest after party at the Plaza Hotel. Cause when I attended the 40th, that’s the one where Prince got on stage and performed with Maya Rudolph. It was insane.
Taylor Swift, McCartney. Yeah, it’s it. I’ve talked to people that were there. I remember Gilbert Gottfried actually told me cause he was there, people forget he was in the cast, that it was celebrity overload. That, I mean, it just was, he’d never been any around that many. And for somebody that like, like you, that’s been around that all the time, it’s like everywhere you turned.
I remember certainly 10 years ago thinking. Jay Z and Beyonce are standing five yards from me alone. I could go up to them and say anything, and I had nothing to say. I like both of them pretty much, but I really couldn’t think of an intriguing enough conversation to have with them.
So, you’re going to the 50th. Did they give any sense on the overflow situation? Having to fit everybody in 8H. I know that they have 8G, which is Seth Meyers, which they, on the 40th, they had some overflow. Um, did they give any indication on how that’s gonna work? So many people in 50 years, I mean, in the last 10 years,
They did not. Other than to say that you can’t bring a guest because, can you imagine?
Yes, that will cut down. That will actually help a lot. I was told the writers, I don’t know if you, if you know anything about this. I heard that the rule was you had to be a writer for three years to get invited. At least three years. That’s what I was told. I don’t know if that’s what you heard.
I would believe that just because. If you didn’t have that rule, it would be dozens of more people.
Yeah. I’m sorry to Max Brooks on that. He missed by one, your, your pal. You wrote some really fun stuff together and he is tremendous. And like, talk about another person who left SNL, who, you know, he was let go and stuff, and it was the best thing that ever happened to him and his career exploded so many cast members and people, you know, just, it’s, it has to sting. And then it just goes even better. Uh, leaving.
Totally. I mean, to me, the exhibit A of that is Chris Rock, who it’s not that he didn’t have a good tenure, but when he talks about his time on SNL, Chris felt like a failure.nHe didn’t feel that he was nearly as good a writer or actor as a lot of people around him. But I worked with him in standup at a club in Phoenix, Arizona, after he had been let go from SNL. It was so remarkable that I was watching a brilliant stand up about to become the hottest comedian in the country.
Yeah, his Update pieces were amazing. And then there was that point, um, leading up to Bring in the Pain where, I mean, yeah, he couldn’t get arrested in terms of like his career and stuff. I mean, he was still Chris Rock. Uh, yeah, it was just the rise when that special came out was just incredible. See, I was told by a very, very good source that Rock actually had his manager at the time, Jim Dixon, James Dixon, who has everybody now, that he asked James Dixon to get out of his contract. I don’t know if that actually happened. I know that Rock said when Sandler, I think hosted that he was fired, but did Rock tell you he was fired. I don’t think he was.
He never. Right. So it wouldn’t surprise me if that was possible what you’re saying. Yeah, that’s possible.
That’s just, um, what I heard. So people that are listening when we concluded this, I teased a sketch that, uh, absolutely killed that you wrote. And as I guess the only Jewish writer, you wrote a sketch called. So this is Hanukkah, which is this Hanukkah special and, uh. It got so much press. I mean, I think it would, now, it would work on two levels. One, it would get so much press, just people laughing, like watching it on YouTube, which really didn’t exist back then, where people were watching sketches and just how funny it was. But holy protest. I mean it, it was one of those things like how did you find out that, was at the Anti-Defamation league, I forget, who it was, was upset. How did you find out and were you worried at all?
The way I found out Mark was because this is, you know, pre internet social media was Monday. I used to go check media sources to see if they reviewed the show or there was any feedback, right? And it was all over the national news, meaning USA Today and the New York Times and any big journal. And the headline was, Abe Foxman, I’ll never forget the name, head of the Anti Defamation League, is demanding an apology from Saturday Night Live over this sketch.
And what happened? Can you set up the premise for So This Is Hanukkah?
The sketch was a parody of a CBS primetime special called And So This Is Christmas that featured celebrities singing their normal Christmas songs. Mine was called And So This Is Hanukkah. It was a promo for this non existent special. And the joke that was the lightning rod for the controversy was the host was, um, Christina Ricci and I cast her as Britney Spears and I had her look at camera and go, Hey, y’all, Chanukah is a special time of year where we as Christians try to forgive our Jewish friends for killing our savior. And that was the joke. Uh, apparently Abe Foxman felt that. It was hitting on the trope of the Jews killed Christ and it was offensive. And that’s why he demanded an apology from Lorne Michaels and NBC. But what happened is NBC released an apology just as he demanded. And they also said, and we agree that this sketch won’t air again. It was in bad taste. What I was so thrilled about is, hours later, Lorne Michaels issued his own press release saying, NBC doesn’t speak for me. This is my show and I don’t apologize. And for anyone who understands comedy, the sketch was satirical. And it was pointing out the ignorance of antisemitism. It wasn’t promoting antisemitism. And so I was so happy to ask you when you asked me, was I worried? No, honestly, I was wondering at what point would some journalists do their research and find out that a Jewish writer wrote this sketch? Strangely, that never came up.
You would think now that would probably happen. Back then, it was one of those things where, it’s such a shame because writers didn’t get much attribution on sketches. Where now it’s like with Twitter and inside information and stuff people that were writing. So it did end up in reruns, correct? Your sketch?
It did, but you know what, Mark? Only briefly, and here’s why. I don’t think it was about the controversy of my sketch. I think it was about the musical rights to clear all those song parodies. Because the one that I have a fond memory of was I had Chris Kattan as Ricky Martin.
I remember
Sining La Vida Loca, you remember that, that was the hottest song in America at the time. I also had Jimmy Fallon and Chris Parnell playing David Bowie and Bing Crosby, right? I just took iconic, but you know, those are expensive and every time you rerun those, um, on a network, it costs the network money. So I’ve had this feeling that the sketch got buried for that reason, but I actually don’t know.
It happens all the time, especially now on YouTube and Peacock because it’s the entire SNL catalog. Yeah. And it’s a 90 minute show and it’s 26 minutes on for certain episodes because there’s so little just because of the music rights. And it just I mean, who is going to foresee that? So this has come up. A lot, but I want to go in a different direction with the Eddie Murphy joke that you wrote for Spade when Spade hosted, David Spade, and upset Eddie Murphy about, um, Oh, look, it’s a, what was it a star when Eddie called up Spade and was upset on that Monday, did he ever ask who wrote the joke, Spade, you know, he said, I didn’t write it, which is absolutely true. I mean, Eddie Murphy’s ire didn’t diminish because of that. Did any Murphy ever try to inquire?
Not to my knowledge. And to Spade’s credit, you know, it was the segment I produced for him called Spade in America. Spade did invent the Hollywood Minute. So he took ownership of it. So he wasn’t going to sell me out or…you know, blame the writer because Spade got to decide which jokes he wanted in Hollywood Minute, which he did. And obviously he chose that joke like he was very conscious of what the joke was and doing it.
I thought he was hosting. Okay, so he was doing Spade in America and then they censored you. It was a Pam Anderson joke, which I, it’s strange to me that it got censored just because the other late night shows were doing very similar material. If you want to say what the joke is, but wait.
Was it the joke? Hold on a second. I think I know what you’re alluding to. Oh yeah, it was about, um, about the tattoo.
I find it very hard.
Hard to swallow. No, I have a question for you. I thought that the joke did air, right? It wasn’t censored. I thought it aired.
It was absolutely censored. They muted it. They had Spade deliver it and they mute it and you just hear the audience laughing.
You just taught me something then, cause see, I remember, Lorne Michaels was okay with the joke, he didn’t have a problem with it, but the NBC censors were all over me about it.
Was that Andrew Brewer at the time?
Yes, it would have been Andrew Brewer, that’s true. And who, by the way, I had a great relationship with, now Mark, your viewers will find this interesting, I come from a lawyer, a family of lawyers, and I’m very well versed in like, civil liberties and free speech. So I would get a note from Andrew Brewer saying, you can’t do this joke. And I’d walk into his office or call him and go, so how does it feel to just be basically, uh, creating Berlin in 1937 and shutting down free speech? And he’d go like, Oh, f*ck you Hugh, and he’d laugh. But what I learned with Andrew Brewer is it was all negotiation. Let’s say there were three jokes that he was demanding. I lose. Oftentimes, he would allow me to keep one or two of them, but I had to cut something to make him happy. But yeah, the swallow joke, we definitely battled over.
There was one joke and I always heard Lorne Michaels in interviews or other people saying that the writers always had. Pretty much the final say with a sketch. Now this has happened to other writers. I know this, where somehow, I don’t know what, how the situation was or the context, but I know that there was, um, a joke that you put in. Um, uh, I think it was a sex joke that you put in one of your sketches and you got it and Lorne wasn’t happy, but like, but with logic going with, he said that the writers have final say, why, why was he upset? What were the, what was the context and what happened?
It’s similar in a sense to the swallow joke. I can tell you exactly what the joke was. It was a, um, parody of those phone sex line commercials. Remember that were in New York? And remember, Mark, I did a series of weird regional phone sex lines. One was called Aussie Girls.
Elle Macpherson.
Elle Mapcherson.
And Sting.
And Sting. Very good. Then I did one with Christine Baranski called Detroit Girls, where they all had that horrible Michigan accent. And I, Baranski, I knew, would nail the accent. So the joke was Jim Breuer calling up the sex line and the sex worker saying something about the Tigers suck, meaning the baseball team and Breuer is saying, and hopefully so do you. Well, the problem is. And this is true, I didn’t clear the joke with Lorne himself, between dress and air, I added that joke, without his permission. So he was upset that he’s watching the live broadcast. And he’s a smart guy. He recognized that was a joke that had not been in any other draft. So that really pissed him off.
How long did it take him to get over it? Because I’ve talked to people that it just, it just takes a little time.
I don’t recall that there were any, like, I feel like by the next week he was okay with me, but he let me have at the night of the show, which is, that’s how mad he was for him to find me after the live show at like the after party or on our way to the after party. And I’ll never forget, Mark. He goes, “Hugh, maybe that joke plays well at the Funny Bone in Omaha. This is network television, try to do better.” And it just made me feel so bad.
Did he raise his voice at all?
No, he rarely raised his voice. It was more just like an intensity where you knew he was upset or pissed. But he wasn’t a yeller.
Yeah, that’s so interesting that, um, in terms of having the final say, but just still, I guess how it works with clearing, uh, something with him. I was gonna, uh, ask you if you had any knowledge of this, cause I did not until my friend Dan Pasternack sent me a video. Mark Russell, after you wrote a sketch, he, he, he did a video actually for my friend Dan and, um, he sent it to Mark McKinney. Dan is friends with both of them. Are you aware of this?
Wait a minute. Dan Pasternack’s friends with. With friends with Mark Russell, the real,
He is, he’s friends with everyone. I mean,
I’m not aware of this at all.
So Pasternack sent me the video and it’s, it was Mark Russell and he’s looking into the camera and he says, Mark McKinney, I saw your, the sketch on Saturday Night Live, and I only have one thing to say to respond. I’m crushing your head. I’m crushing your head. And he did the whole Kids in the Hall thing. And I thought it was the funniest thing and I couldn’t believe it. And I thought he was such a good sport.
Um, that’s amazing. Cause I never got that feedback. I never knew if Mark Russell saw the sketch or liked it.
Yeah, I mean, I think for somebody that, um, you know, is not really with the younger demographic anymore, um, just to be mentioned on SNL and get a whole sketch. Um, it was earlier in, pretty early in the show, I think too.
By the way, that was the Chris Rock show.
Yes, and Wallflowers, I think as well. That was, um.
That was Chris Rock’s first time hosting the show.
Yeah, that was a really big deal. That was such an interesting time period because they did this. They don’t do this too often, but it was a whole thematic thing where they were only putting, it was like six hosts in a row or something, where they were all former cast members. It was Downey Jr. It was Carvey. It was Rock. Um, I’d have to look at the list, but it was all people that they were putting, um, That they were putting in that were former cast members. But yeah, Rock was, um, by that time when he got on stage and stuff, he was a force. And now look at him. He’s still, you know, hosting the show.
That was a hot show too, because that was post OJ verdict. So, you know, Chris had so many witty things to say about OJ. And I wrote the sketch he did that night, his Nat X talk show, because remember Nat X had been a character, but I, I brought it back. I remember one of the jokes, Mark, that I love that we did on that was because Nat X always did a Top 10 and it was Top 10 reasons Whoopi Goldberg movies suck. And number 10, Sister Act, number 9, Sister Act 2, number 8, but the number one reason. If Whoopi’s in it. That’s what I remember was the number one reason Whoopi Goldberg movies suck. She’s in it.
Yeah, that’s definitely, um, I have to look back in, but that, then that actually, and that was like the one sketch that Chris Rock’s recurring character, one of the only things that he was They would like throw him in once in a while, it’s like Nipsey Russell, or I think he only did it once, but it never really, it was like almost when he was with himself on Update, that’s when he, he shined. I want to go back to, um, we were talking before, um, last time about the pitch meeting, what happens when you get like an, I’m not going to mention the person’s name, if you want to, you can, but it’s an A list actress, I know that she, when she hosted a film actress when she was there, and like, they’ll ask the host. Do you have any ideas and like, if you’re smart, if you’re not a comedian, probably not say anything or like, just maybe you want to ask like a comedy friend, like if this might be a good pitch, but when you have somebody that’s an A lister and you’re with all these, some of the best comedy writers in the business, and you say, I want to do a sketch about Farting, What is the risk? Like, I mean, obviously the host, you have to be polite no matter what. And everybody, the air bubble and the ho, the writers are like, you’ve got to be kidding. Like the most low brow, like that’s what you, that’s what you want to do. Let’s do something that would be fun with, like, do you recall that?
I mean, I’m going to get, was that Cameron Diaz?
No comment.
Yeah. I’ve, Hugh Fink will say on the record, I think that was Cameron Diaz. Yeah. For me as a comedian and comedy writer. It’s, it’s the equivalent of slowly deflating a balloon, meaning, Oh, really? That’s the, that’s the taste level for comedic sophistication of this person. So it’s kind of a bummer. Now, thank God I didn’t have to write that sketch, nor would I. And honestly, I don’t even think we did do that idea.
I don’t think so, but for Lorne, like, I mean, I know he would have this exact same reaction as you, but you’d be polite. I think you told me one time, because you would teach these comedy classes and you still are doing and I think that this is a good point in terms of, um, something can be really, really funny and get laughs, but not necessarily be good comedy. But this was this was your opinion on this person, but you would actually show a video of this comedian who passed away. Can you mention who it was and what the context was to show people?
Sure. Tell if this is the right story, Mark. So teaching at UCLA, a class on standup comedy. I gathered all the students and before I said a word to them, I put on on the monitor an excerpt of the comedian Gallagher and I let them watch it for about 10 minutes. And what was interesting was, some people were like laughing pretty hard. Other people were not laughing at all. I stopped his special 10 minutes in and I came back and said, all right, any of you who found this funny. Or thought, this is good comedy. This is probably not the class for you. And you just saw the students be shocked that I would start off a class that way. But that really was my implicit message. Getting laughs has actually not so much to do with being clever or original. And Gallagher would be a great example of that
Taking away the watermelons, though. He had something like 12 Showtime specials. I did you not find any of his material intelligent?
I think what happened is the stuff that I found so bad got in the way of anything he did do that was maybe good. So I’m not going to go on record and say nothing Gallagher did was funny. I just remember that the bits that he did that made him famous, and that people would repeat. Were those things that I would just shake my head at.
The only reason I’m going to mention this host because you did an interview and you talked about it and that’s Bill Pullman. So Bill Pullman comes in and you write what I think is a very funny monologue premise. You, you pitch it to him and what happens?
Well, to make it completely accurate mark. Now, did I pitch it? We did it. It’s a table read and it crushed. And it got chosen to be the monologue for that week. So in other words, Lorne Michaels approved it, everyone approved it, the network approved it. So we’re all happy. Hugh wrote this monologue for Bill Pullman that’s going to get big laughs. And the premise of the monologue was Bill Pullman, who was in the number one movie of the year that week. You remember what it was?
Independence Day.
Very good. Independence Day. He’s hot off the number one movie. The premise was, he comes out on stage and says, Hey, I’m going to take some questions from you. I’m Bill Pullman. And you know, the old technique of plants in the audience asking questions. So the joke and the premise was that everyone confused Bill Pullman with other actors. They thought he was Bill Paxton. They thought he was Michael Douglas and that he gets progressively angrier and more frustrated that people don’t know who the hell he is. Well, Lorne loved it. Said it was the perfect take on this guy. So Friday. We haven’t really rehearsed the monologue officially yet. I get called in by the talent office and they go, will you talk to Bill Pullman? I go, what’s going on? They go, apparently he doesn’t like the monologue anymore. I’m like, what? So I go meet with him. And, um, there was a, someone from the talent office with me to witness this. And he goes, um. Hey man, can you tell me sort of, again, um, why, why are we doing, why are we doing this monologue? And me being me, I go, why are we doing it? Cause it’s a comedy show and it got big laughs at the table read and it’s funny. That’s why we’re doing it. He didn’t like that. And he’s like, Hey man, cause you know what? I don’t think it’s that funny. Like, I don’t know what we’re doing here Hugh. I said, well, Bill, what we’re doing here is you’re making fun of yourself for maybe not being as well known as a lot of people with the number one movie in the country. And we’re pointing that out in a funny way. And he goes, yeah, but what people, it’s not going to work because people do know me. So I start to go back and forth with him and clearly this is what’s happened. Mark, his publicist has read the script after it’s been…. And said Bill, you can’t do that. That makes you look like you’re not a movie star, right? So it has nothing to do with comedy. It’s everything to do with his image. And this is so great. So I meet with Lorne Michaels to tell him that Bill’s refusing to do the monologue. And Lorne says, Hugh, last night I had dinner with Bill. We walked from the restaurant back to 30 Rock. Do you know how many people recognized him? I said, no. He goes, nobody. Which again is Lorne’s way of saying your monologue is spot on. It’s making a true observation that people don’t know this guy. Well, sad story, and you know what happened. He did refuse to do the monologue, and I got assigned to rewrite his new monologue, which literally had one joke in it, and then him just saying, stick around, we’ll be right back. It’s one of the worst monologues that I ever saw, that I was ashamed to be a part of. But in truth, it was not my monologue, it was Bill Pullman’s monologue.
Didn’t Colin Quinn later tell you that Bill Pullman was complaining about you at the after party?
Well, I considered the complaint a compliment, but the way Colin told me the story, Mark was that Bill Pullman, who was drinking now a little bit, he, the show’s over, he’s like, God, you know, these writers, like this Hugh Fink guy, like he’s just, he doesn’t give up, man. He doesn’t give up. And the, yeah, he picked up on the fact that I was passionate about my idea. I had the show’s backing. It had killed at the table read. So yeah, I didn’t tell him what he wanted to hear. And I do have a funny epilogue for you.
Okay.
About before COVID, I was at a dinner party here in LA. Who’s at the dinner party? Bill Pullman. I’ve had no contact with this man since what you’re describing. I decided, what the hell? I’ll go up to him, reintroduce myself. He clearly had no recollection of me or the monologue. He was perfectly polite, but I thought that was really interesting that I’ve, I’m sitting here talking to you about it years later. He had no memory of it.
That’s interesting that yeah, cuz it could have gone either way.
Right.
You were there for an interesting time with Lorne Michaels because this had never happened in the show’s history It happened during Ebersol years and briefly with Jean Doumanian with Eddie Murphy more You know when when when Ebersol was there with Eddie Murphy Getting so much time, but never in the history of the show had somebody gotten as much camera time during Lorne Michaels as, I believe, Will Ferrell. I mean, he started a precedent with The Groundlings where writers would put in sketches just to get, I mean, Will’s funny on his own, but to get your sketch picked, which you need to, they were putting Will’s name on it. It happened then with Kristen Wiig. It happened with Kate McKinnon. Now, this is my preference. I like all those people above. But I really enjoy the show the last couple of years because it’s, it’s a cast ensemble and there isn’t one person that is getting, it seems, maybe Sarah Sherman a little bit, maybe a little bit, a little bit more, maybe Kenan shows up here and there, but there is nobody. But back then it was a point. Um, and it became that with Kristen Wiig and Kate McKinnon more where. When did that happen? When, when writers started being like, we have to get our sketch and we’re going to put Ferrell in.
I do remember Mark that before I was writing on the show, but I had friends who were on the show that, um, Lorne would sometimes look at what they had for the week and go, we need more Dana, we need more Dana. So I think that even with Carvey, they recognize that he was a star, people liked him, and that if when in doubt add Dana to a sketch.
It’s true, but there were sketches. There were times where him and Mike Myers was the biggest movie starts with Wayne’s World and Myers was, was only in like a piece or two. And then he’d be in the next week. He’d be in everything. And, um, there would be times where Carvey would be light. They, he would be in the show, but with Will Ferrell, I mean. I mean, you could make the argument, maybe Phil Hartman, but they would write him in, it wouldn’t get the sketch picked necessarily just that he was the glue that kept the sketch together. But in terms of putting somebody’s name on it, um, I get what you’re saying with Carvey…
I’ll give you another supposition here that maybe you don’t agree with, but that I think with the current cast, one could argue that. It is an ensemble that works well, but no one cast member has leapt forward to be a star in the way of the people you’re talking about. Because if they did, then there’s a chance they would be in twice as many sketches. Like you said, Kate.
I mean, I definitely think like Sarah Sherman, Chloe Fineman.
Dismukes. Yes. Mikey Day. You know, I always have this theory that I think could be well proven, Mark. You would actually be the guy to know, is that. If you’re on the show for two years, two full years as a cast member, and you don’t have at least one sketch that the general American populace who knows comedy will say, Oh, I love that actor in that sketch. If you don’t have that, you might still be super talented and you might still have a good career, but it generally means you’re not going to be a star on Saturday Night Live.
There’s exceptions like Tracy Morgan was one of those people that if he was around now, I mean, he talked about in the documentary, he’s like, they didn’t get me the first couple of years. I’m like, cause you weren’t ready. I mean, there were certain people that just were not ready. And he got the luxury of a little bit more time, very similar to Conan when he was at Late Night. Whereas, um, some of the other people that were let go, maybe only get a season, but besides him, I think you’re, you’re on the money. I do think that in terms of like hitting that show and, and having longevity on it. You’re, you’re absolutely right. I think he was maybe one of the, and I’m really glad that they gave him a little bit more time and they figured it out.
Yes. And honestly, Tracy went to the stratosphere with 30 Rock. I think there were still people not as familiar with Tracy Morgan as a comedic actor or persona until Tina put him in that,
I think, so, I mean, Lorne was really, I mean, took care of him in terms of keeping him on SNL, where maybe the first season or two, he wasn’t resonating with the audience and then Tracy Morgan show, which no one remembers on NBC was a little
That’s right
And then 30 Rock and that’s yeah, I think that’s where Tracy absolutely shined. This is another thing I was watching, um Fallon when he had his late-night show back in the 12:30 show, which is ever going, so Wyatt Cenac is on, um, on with Jimmy. And Jimmy’s talking about, you used to be an intern at SNL, um, says something like Norm, Norm Macdonald says hi. And remember like, and it’s over the audience’s head. I mean, he, Wyatt kind of smiles a little bit and Jimmy’s like laughing a little bit. I know what’s going on, but Wyatt Cenac in later years, recently, I think in the last couple of years has talked about this was way after the Fallon interview. You were there for this. What, what happened?
I was an eyewitness to what you’re referring to.
What happened?
So Norm had this habit that I did not like at all of playing touch football in the 17th floor of 30 Rock’s elevator bank. And the problem is I would walk by just to my office or leaving it. And the game was getting kind of rough. Like you’d see someone would throw a Nerf football and someone else would catch it. And then they slam the guy against the elevator, like to tackle it. And it just looked incredibly dangerous to me. And, you know, really adolescent. So one night I’m walking by. And they’re playing the touch football and Wyatt Cenac, who at this point is a literally an intern on the show, he’s a nobody, he either, you know, catches the ball or something, he bumps Norm or something happened where Norm basically like shoved him to the ground or, or punches him and Wyatt returns it with a punch. And it became like a fight, all over a stupid touch football game that has nothing to do with comedy. And I just remember going like, yeah, this is bad. This is exactly why I don’t like them doing this in the hallway.
Norm was very competitive, obviously.
He didn’t like being embarrassed by Wyatt, you know, catching the ball when Norm was supposed to be defending, whatever was going on, right?
So nothing happens though?
There’s no, there’s no, to my knowledge, nothing happens. They, you know, SNL, to me, I never even heard of HR back then. No one ever complained.
I’ve heard Colin Quinn in some interviews, talk about, um, Chris Kattan, who you wrote some really, um, you wrote, uh, Peepers. You wrote The Crocodile Hunter that Colin would talk about what he would witness between, um, Kattan and, and Norm, which would get a little contentious. Uh, he said that there was maybe some sketch, I forget, during a read through. I forget what, what, what stands out about their relationship and Norm kind of teasing Kattan and Kattan.
I have a story for you that nobody probably knows. Cause I witnessed it too. When the Rolling Stone magazine put SNL on the cover because the show was hot again, right?
I remember.
You remember a quote in the article where normal alluded to Chris Kattan? It sort of made some snide remark about that he’s gay, which Kattan was not. And the reporter asked Kattan, Norm said this, what do you respond? And Chris Kattan said, Norm’s an a**hole. So that was in print in Rolling Stone magazine.
Can I just give a little bit more context, a little bit more? So the one thing that Norm said is, I don’t find him funny. And Kattan said, if Norm said that, then you can, you can print that. I said that he’s, uh, yeah, what you just said. And he did. Norm was quoted as saying, I’ve never met a, I’ve seen a guy who was gay, that gay before that’s not gay. And I think Downey said, I think that he was referring to kind of in the cheeky sense. I think that’s where Downey was quoted, something like that. But I do remember that. Um, I do remember that very well in the article.
You’ve set it up very well. So the next Saturday Night Live show, there’s an after party and I’m probably seated with Kattan, I, I must’ve been, and Kattan’s father, the character actor, Kip King was, um, visiting Chris. And so Norm comes up to them at the party. Hey, uh, Mr. Kattan, Kip King, I just wanted to say, it’s really good to meet you. It’s fun. Really nice working with your son and, uh, welcome. So Kattan’s kind of surprised that Norm’s being so respectful. So he takes him aside and goes, I don’t get it, Norm. Like you, you slam me in Rolling Stone, insult me, then you come up and are really nice to my dad. Like, I just explain to me why, why are you doing this? And Norm goes, I mean, really, Chris, what, what am I really going to say to your dad? Your son’s unfunny and gay? And just walks away.
How did Kattan react to that?
Not well. You know, I think that that was their relationship. And I would have to say that I don’t think Chris had anything against Norm, other than the fact that Norm started in, you know, publicly criticizing him.
And then the Rolling Stone cover was an issue, at least Jim Breuer did an interview where, again, I can’t believe, um, sometimes, I’m just very surprised with, What a big deal that is, um, sometimes internally, but the Rolling Stone, it was, it was Molly was on the cover. Molly Shannon with Cheri Oteri and, um, Molly is Mary Katherine Gallagher is Cheri Oteri and Ferrell as The Cheerleaders. And then you had, um, who was it was one other person. I believe I can’t believe I’m I’m blanking on who it was, Norm was asked to be in it, but he wasn’t yeah.
Right, was it Ana Gasteyer?
Could have been, I’m trying to remember who was, I think it was for Breuer was quoted as saying that like they secretly, like, I guess had a photo shoot with like the four of them or whoever it was, you know, no it was Kattan. I think it may be as a Roxbury. It could have been, I think, I forget. I think maybe Kattan, I think Kattan was in it for sure. What Breuer was saying about how they did a secret photo shoot and it was such a, it was like a, a lot of people were upset. Really? I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s such, I, I, I’m shocked just with like how busy the show is and everything going on. I mean, it’s a huge deal, I guess that, um, it had been a while that anybody from SNL, I think from the show they were covering on Rolling Stone, but like, was stuff like that a big deal?
No, it wasn’t for writers. Honestly, I could say if I were a cast member, I could probably see how it would be a big deal because you want to believe that you’re valued and it’s a team that you’re a part of. So when you’re not included in a big media thing like that, you would feel hurt. I didn’t recall at the time, any controversy about the cover. That was probably with the only within the cast itself.
Apparently Norm was like I don’t care and Breuer, I guess, wanted to be Goat Boy or patchy. Yeah, it was one of those things where I just the behind the scenes. I was very very surprised. In terms of the rewrites which would take place. They would break them up a lot of times in two groups on 17 and on 9 who were one of the two of the funniest writers around the table. In terms of the rewrites, because somebody could write sketches and hand one in on, on a Wednesday. And that is a very different skill set. Sometimes being around a table and being funny. Who were some of the best people around the table?
I feel like Tina Fey was really good at rewriting jokes and pitching stuff. Mike Schur, he had a nickname, “rewrite master.” So sometimes he would pitch a joke and, um, the head writer would go like, oh, that’s great. And he’d go. Rewrite master! Um, but I remember Schur being definitely a rewriter. And, um, I feel like Paula Pell was a good rewriter. She could definitely contribute new, funny stuff. Yeah.
So there were certain cast members that you, uh, I’m not going to mention who they are, but you did not write for, there were certain people that you just, you know, found funnier than others. Did some of these, and I’m thinking of two people, I’m not going to say who they are. Did they ever ask you or like, uh, why aren’t you writing for me? Or would you please consider writing for me? And if so, how do you, how do you, what do you say back to somebody like that?
Right. I don’t recall, honestly, that anyone ever confronting me or ask me about that. The only thing I remember Horatio Sanz once gently complained to me that the only thing I ever wrote for him was asking him to do impressions of, you know, celebrities, and by the way, that’s generally true… that if I wanted Horatio in a sketch, it was because I felt like there was someone he physically or otherwise could approximate in a funny way, but I didn’t generally write a lot of stuff for him
If you’re comfortable with it. What was the line that it was like a sketch that didn’t make it that you wrote it and it didn’t get picked for, um, I think that they flagged it because it was kind of like an inside, like sometimes, um, I was told Fred Armisen would write these sketches, like a sketch or two words actually about the read through that was going on and they would read it. But I know that you wrote one of those type sketches that got pulled and not picked. But what was, it was like Tracy Morgan talking about just in general, I think he’s just talking and he mentions and Horatio, what is it like next year? You’re not coming back. Is that it?
I’d forgotten that until you just brought it up. I think I wrote that my last episode on my last season. Knowing that, well, if they hate it, they can’t punish me for writing it. But I think you’re right. I did do some joke about that. Another time, Mark, I remember for Ellen DeGeneres, this didn’t get picked, but I thought it should have. It was a monologue. It was basically Ellen saying something about. The show’s been around longer than people think, and it was recreating a monologue from like 1937. So it had sort of the SNL theme song, but done in a big band 30s way with a different announcer. But the joke was after about six or seven fake cast member names, it was Tim Meadows as if he’d been there for 75 years. And that got a huge laugh at the table.
It’s really, really, it’s making me laugh now.
Of course, since my era, Mark, there’s been cast members who’s now stayed longer than Tim, right?
It’s amazing because Steve Higgins came up with the joke about, they did at least one, maybe two, about how Meadows was there for 11. They did, I think it was, It was a musical bit. It might’ve been when Mike Myers hosted, and he was like talking about, I couldn’t get out of my, I should never have signed a 14 year contract or 30 year contract or whatever it was. And, and Tim Meadows basically said at first, you know, like Tim, um, that, that Steve Higgins was like, are you okay that I’m doing this? And yeah, but he was okay with it and it happened, but now. For whatever reason, I mean, there’s a couple people that have stayed longer than Tim, but those jokes don’t, I mean, it’s, it started is like, like, I remember like people would be made fun of if they stayed for, um, yeah, more than like seven or eight years. And now it’s become a thing where people just, you know, it’s kind of accepted. It’s
Exactly.
Um, it’s a little different. Were there any writers when you were there? Cause I know that this has happened on the show and I can’t imagine, you know what? Sarah Silverman admitted this happened. She had zero sketches on when she was a writer. She got one, I think, to dress, which was John Malkovich, and it didn’t get on. Were there any writers that, to your knowledge, when you were there, that did not get anything to air?
I feel like there were writers who lasted a whole season, who maybe didn’t get one thing to air. If they were renewed and got on a second season, by their second season, they got something on for sure. But no, I can recall. Cause you know, when I started, they’d cleaned house and it was like a bunch of writers who had never worked in network TV. There were several writers who were barely getting anything on.
I was only going to say that Harper Steele told me that they had a very tough time in the beginning.
That’s true. I think Harper. Is correct about that. And they obviously figured it out the longer they stayed and were highly successful.
Who else was having a tough time? Do you, did you, if you recall, I mean,
I’m only going to not, I’m trying to think if there’s anyone who started out rough. Like Harper and then thrived. Well, I feel like Tina herself would say her first season was probably marginal, but I feel like by Tina’s second season, she really upped her game.
It’s unbelievable to go to a place. I mean. The fact that she, I think Odenkirk is the only other one I know of above Odenkirk at Second City, and this is after he was an SNL writer, where they, you can bypass the, the touring company and just go right to, um, I mean, I think she just went from, Right to the ETC and, um, then to the main stage and not go through the year or two of the touring company at Second City and the fact that she was able to rise. I don’t know if you agree with this or not, but like, I don’t know anybody in the history of the show. Maybe, I’m sure that’s changed. Maybe Seth, after Seth, but that had Lorne’s ear like she did. I mean, do you think that’s fair to say?
I think the other, Smigel did.
Yeah. Yeah. Smigel.
But he certainly did, because even Smigel left the show and still had Lorne’s ear, right? He would come back.
Yeah. I mean, Smigel’s definitely, I mean. Right.
And Jim Downey.
Of course, Jim Downey.
So those, yeah, that would be the trifecta of people who. Heard that back in the day, Al Franken was that guy.
I can see that. Yeah, I can see, I can, I can, I can see that. So we talked about your Letterman debut, about how Letterman in you, um, Letterman really took to you, obviously, Indiana, and he loved one of your jokes and he would have you do it. I was reading this interview with you, but I don’t think I brought this up or this came up is that he actually was at your debut that he actually, during the commercial went backstage in the wings where you were standing with Biff Henderson to say hi to you before the show?
Yeah, like before it was before I was introduced on the air, he said hi to me, which is incredible.
I’ve never heard of that before.
It’s unprecedented, especially because Spade had told me from his appearances in Letterman. He was always funny. He goes, man, you know, when. When the camera’s off, Dave just kind of turned his back and didn’t talk to him. And that’s not because he disliked David. It’s because that’s generally Dave was with his guests. But it shows how cool Dave was to me that the Indiana connection was big to him.
I really like that. I do want to mention that Letterman, um, like Carson wanted to keep. Uh, save everything for air. That’s why Johnny didn’t, I mean, Dave to, uh, I mean, Johnny, once in a while, if it was like Letterman was on or Rickles, he’d go backstage just to say hi, but wanted to keep it. And especially in the commercials, wanted to save it for air and just was didn’t want like, and that’s what Dave did for the most part. But for him to go backstage and, or behind beforehand, I was just like, I can’t believe this. This is something I had never heard when you had your NYU radio show. I remember you telling me Michael Palin was on, who were some of the people that you got on as a college student? Cause like, I can’t even.
Oh, I, I love, yeah, one of them. I just paid to see here in LA do her one woman show Fran Lebowitz.
Whoa.
How she, I had her on. Yeah. MetropolitanWwife had just come out.
So you’re a college student. You’re at NYU. Um, and all these people are coming on. What was that like?
It was phenomenal. I mean, well, I’ll tell you, it gave me the confidence to do what I’m doing because. I held my own in these interviews. Like they weren’t some little kid going, Oh, please tell me like I had funny, provocative questions written and they weren’t yes, no questions. They were actually interesting or funny questions. I remember I asked Michael Palin, I said, Michael, you’re a British accomplished actor, and there’s one thing Americans really wanted to know, could you explain the parliamentary system? Which is such a funny question and it requires him to improvise. And I remember his response was, well, of course. So the system starts at the loo of the queen. So you flush the toilet and then the water goes, he described it like it was the system of the parliament plumbing system. That’s how he interpreted it. And I remember at one point he said something about he was inspired by Elvis. And I said, Presley or Costello,
That’s fast.
I mean, I was that fast and I was really like 19 years old. That’s pretty fast. So it was great that showing, as you might know, Mark, besides the celebrity interviews that where I took live call ins. Phone calls. I had pre recorded sketches like SNL. So I did fake promos, commercial parodies, um, TV show stuff. It was really cool.
Was Robert older than you? Was he going to NYU the same time you were?
About the same age. Yeah. We’re about the same time, exact same time.
Was he doing comedy at that point?
No, he was, I think he was like, you know, his father’s a famous dentist, right? He may have been like in the business school or pre med, unlike me, who was in the school of the arts. Robert Smigel was not in the school of the arts, when he was at NYU.
Amazing to think back. And then we talked about this the last time, but in terms of somebody who wants to get started in the business or write sketches or be able to like have a skillset blueprint for writing for SNL or for late night, considering you were the head writer for Ferguson, you’ve created your own show in Comedy Central, the Showbiz show, and with David Spade, you’re, you’re doing these classes. How are they going? And if somebody wanted to take them, I know you teach at Harvard, but could people work with you at all? Or..
People can take my class at Harvard if they’re, I think, currently enrolled in college, either undergraduate or graduate, because it’s a full, fully credited course, but Harvard accepts students from other campuses to register for the class. That class is going great, and just so your viewers know, not only do I teach it, but then they get to spend a weekend with me in L. A. doing A workshop where we write stuff, but I also bring in guest speakers, Darrell Hammond met with the students this time. They were in heaven. I brought in Andy Blitz. You know, Andy.
Oh yeah. Conan. I mean, yeah.
Charlie Sanders, who wrote some of the greatest things on key and peel.
Funny man. Yeah. Improviser from New York. I used to watch him at.
That’s right. So I had them on. And then, um, so that’s a really cool class. Then I teach at Chapman University’s Dodge college, which is, you know, top five film school in the country. It’s, to my knowledge, you have to be a student at Chapman to study with me at Chapman.
I’m so glad we got to do this. I hope you have fun at the 50th.
Oh, thank you. Because Mark, I know you’re a, one of the leading Johnny Carson experts. I’ll leave you with, um, a story that I bet you’ve not heard that my late friend, Bob Saget told me. So I know it’s happened. Saget was on Carson many times and Johnny liked him. And one time Johnny, after the show, I think said, uh, let’s take a walk. And they went outside to where Johnny’s VIP parking spot was, and there were all these fans outside the Burbank gates. Johnny, we love you! And Sagat’s like, oh my god, this is probably Johnny’s life every day. And Johnny looks at the crowd and looks back at Sagat and goes, “assholes.”
Got Sagat to laugh and then probably lit up a cigarette.
Exactly. Exactly.
Carson. That’s a, that’s a amazing, um, Hugh, thank you so much for doing this. This was fun.
Yeah. Mark. Well, we could do a part three sometime.
Oh, it would be my honor.
This would be so good. I’d love to have you back.
That’s great.
