When Robert Smigel agrees to return to your podcast to continue talking about his legendary run at SNL, you’d be a fool not to seize the opportunity sooner rather than later.
And so, shortly after joining Mark Malkoff for the third episode of Inside Late Night this past Spring, Robert Smigel returned for an extended second interview.
It was such a lengthy conversation that we’ll be presenting it in two parts. This week in Part 1, Smigel tells scores of never before heard stories about some of our favorite SNL sketches, including the first “Wayne’s World,” how “Toonces the Cat” changed his approach to comedy, and how “The Five-Timer’s Club” was inspired by a Tom Hanks impression of Lorne Michaels.
Plus: Smigel weighs in on why it took three years for Chris Farley’s “Motivational Speaker” to make it to the air (and his one regret about that classic sketch), and why he’s proudly one of the few people to ever ask for a demotion on Saturday Night Live.
Click the embed below to listen now, or find Inside Late Night on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Robert Smigel’s most recent projects include the Netflix original animated film Leo (which he co-wrote and co-directed), and the YouTube special Triumph Presents: Let’s Make A Poop LIVE From SF Sketchfest. Follow him on X/Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok.
Show Transcript
Mark Malkoff: Robert Smigel, thank you for the last 15 minutes of doing tech with me. I have no idea what I’m doing, but I’ve had some questions for literally thirty years, so thanks for coming back. My first one is: How with “The Nude Beach” with Matthew Broderick, one of the most famous sketches you wrote. How did Tom Hanks do it first at Dress Rehearsal, and how did it get cut? Did it not perform well at dress?
Robert Smigel: So, the sketch was written for Tom Hanks the year before, I believe. We read it at the table read– it did great, and the network was absolutely adamant that uh they would not have it on their show. And so Conan and I and Bob Odenkirk performed “Happy Happy Good Show” that summer in Chicago, and we performed–we opened with–that sketch, and it did great. I recently played a version of it for Conan. And then, when we got back to New York at the end of the writer’s strike and the beginning of the next season, NBC had dissolved their standards department. Now, I don’t know if that was some version of downsizing that they chose to do because they took some economic hit, or if it was because basic cable and pay cable were starting to lap network TV in terms of relevancy. And they started to feel like we have to be more permissive of what we put on network television. And so we came back and we were told there’s no standards department anymore. There was somebody, who was there, who was supposed to represent a remnant of decency, you know, a token representative of, a token advocate for standards, but they let “The Nude Beach” go this time. So, Tom Hanks was the first show of the season, and we did it at dress rehearsal, I’m actually in that dress rehearsal version because they, I don’t remember why, I think it had to with Phil Hartman not wanting to ever be shirtless in a sketch. So, it did okay, it did pretty well. But that was a pretty strong show. I believe that’s the show that we won an Emmy Award for, for the writing of. And so it was packed with a lot of good stuff. The very next week, Matthew Broderick hosted, and we had Matthew Broderick be the, I think in the original version, maybe Dana was the new guy at the nude beach, and Tom Hanks was kind of in Dana’s role. And then the following week, Matthew Broderick was the new guy because he was so, it was such a signature Matthew Broderick thing to sort of play the victim at that point and straight man in movies. And then, yeah, and then the sketch made it.
I loved when Dennis Miller would actually do with sketch here and there, which stopped, unfortunately. He just didn’t want to do the blocking. But I thought He was really funny in that.
Yeah, I don’t, I think he may have been the guy who wasn’t in it the week before. I cannot remember.
It was a long time ago.
It was a long time ago.
I wanted to talk about the season premiere of 1995. It was Will Ferrell’s first episode.
Yeah.
You actually wrote the cold open, two cold opens in a row.
Yes.
OJ sketches. The first was the OJ courtroom and it was the whole news… “the OJ weather,” and “OJ Shame on You.” I was there for that, and that absolutely killed.
Oh cool.
And the next week, you write this cold open with Adam McKay, and it’s the whole famous, “I Did It.” Two questions: 1) Can you describe the sketch, and 2) Was the “I Did It” beat you or McKay?
That beat was me. So, the first week, I think I might have mentioned this. That Lorne, that was the was the new season, the turnover season. After all that rigmarole from the New York Magazine article that had come out and the show was really kind of on the ropes. And Lorne, there were rumors that they were going to replace him. And then that didn’t happen, thankfully. And Lorne called me in and asked me to be the producer under him. I think there was a perception that I always wanted to run the show because I was young and opinionated, but I never did. Never did. I always wanted Lorne to stay. I thought Lorne and Jim Downey were the perfect balance. Now Jim Downey was gone, and Lorne wanted me to be sort of the guy under him and eventually take over. But I just, it was not my aspiration to do that. And the same time, Dana Carvey was approaching me about doing a new show in prime time. And that just seemed like a much more interesting challenge to just start from scratch.
I was going to ask you this. Somebody that we both know, I mentioned this to him that you were offered the number two. And he’s like, “I’ve never heard that. I don’t, I don’t think It’s true.” And I was like, “No, I don’t think the public, or the people that are fans know this, even the people who know you.”
I wouldn’t make it up. Why would I make it up?
I know! Because you’re very modest.You’re not going to be telling people, but USA Today reported that it was you, Steve Higgins were up for it. And this makes absolutely no sense to me: Adam Resnick, because he’s an outside hire. He did a little bit on, but…
I think Adam Resnick may have been interviewed for it. I know Judd Apatow, I think, interviewed for it at one point. I mean, Steve Higgins, it’s not like Steve Higgins had a ton of, you know, years and years of sketch writing.
Jon Stewart Show head writer.
Yeah, he worked for Jon Stewart, but that was a very, you know, fairly brief amount of time. But Steve ended up having, I think, perfect personality and skills for the job. I think it worked out great. And I think if Lorne ever leaves, I hope he doesn’t. I hope he stays as long as he wants. But if he ever did, I think Steve Higgins would do an excellent job.
Yeah, I was talking to Rachel Dratch yesterday, and I said the people that I would think would be up for Tina Fey, Seth Meyers, Steve Higgins, and you. Those are the only four people I can think of that… And I mentioned to her also. I don’t know how they would deal with the network. I mean, you and Tina both were that worked with and so forth. But Seth, too, and Higgins and stuff. But my point is, this is my point. If you took that number two job if you did take it the next few years of the show would have been unrecognizable from what actually got on with the writing that very first season in ‘95. Let me explain. It was a nice balance of characters and premises, it was it was really the writers and actors working together. Jim Carrey finale hits, which is very funny. Almost all over-the-top characters and I realized at the time I like to watch it for the writing, and I was, it was not going to be, the show was not going to be as much for me. And it became the writers taking over. And it was just over the-top-sketches and very few premise pieces, which would never happen under you.
I think you’re right in that the sketches got a little less premise-oriented. I really can’t say. I mean, what it had in common with Lorne for sure was I love watching performers. I love watching them develop characters. And, you know, it all came out of the cast he chose. Now, would I have had different opinions on people? I have no idea because I wasn’t there.
“The Cheerleaders” would not have gotten on, whatever, 17 times if you were there.
Well, I mean, I, you know, I made fun of that in a cartoon. I mean…
Yeah.
That wasn’t, I would have probably represented Downey’s sensibility a little more than the other people that were around Lorne having worked under Downey.
I don’t even know if cheerleaders would have gotten on and Will Ferrell mentioned that. I do want to mention “Church Chat.”.
Oh, it would have gotten on. It would have gotten on.
It would have gotten on, but wouldn’t have done. I mean, Will, Will Ferrell, um, I heard from him and he said that he didn’t want to be doing Cheerleaders as much as they were doing, but you had…
Sure
Wolf, Scott Wolf was hosting and he’s, like, on Monday, he’s like, “I want to do The cheerleaders.” And Will in his head is like, “I don’t want to be doing this,” but the hosts have so much say that they ended up doing it. And same with Molly with Mary Katherine Gallagher. She didn’t want to be doing it as much as they were, but the hosts, when they come in. And that was sort of Lorne’s mentality, too, at the time, right, Is we’re going to do mango as much as we can because it works?
I mean, you know, I, again, I was not part of the brain trust there. I wasn’t even there. I was, I really wasn’t part of that 1995 -96 season at all.
You wrote some sketches. Elle Macpherson.
I wrote those two sketches.
Elle Macpherson, you wrote the whole about.
Yes, yes. Every now and then I would come in with an idea I wrote, an Elle Macpherson sketch about the Sports Illustrated issue, and I wrote…
The swimsuit issue, yeah.
Yeah, like it was a holiday special. And I wrote, like I said, I wrote for the Damon Wayans episode.
That was the year before.
Oh, that was the year before? Okay, I’m so confused.
Yep. No, you actually are a normal person, and my mind with this stuff, as you mentioned before, I’m the guy, I’m Lovitz and Carvey in the Star Trek sketch that you wrote.
Right, right, right. I have moments, I would have moments of inspiration. I was like, you know, it was a very happy time in my life, actually, because I wasn’t attached to anything. I had left Conan to write a “Da Bears” movie, And then that didn’t go. And then I was just kind of free, you know, it wasn’t until like late ‘95 that I started working on The Dana Carvey Show. So I, and I did feel like a tiny twinge of, not guilt for turning down the producing job, but just, there was something that made me want to, I didn’t want to let Lorne down.
They figured it out. It worked for them. It took them a bunch of years to really, I mean.
No, he picked wonderful, yeah. He picked a lot of wonderful performers. He did. And, you know, and there was a core of excellent writers there.
Agreed.
It just skewed more toward, you know, recurring characters at the time. But, you know, the show was trying to reinvent itself and “Get out of the Ivy League” is what Lorne told me when I met him, that he wanted to get out of the Ivy League. He felt like it had become too writerly, especially that last season.
It was. And the season before, but definitely that season was varied. Yeah.
Yeah, it had gone too far into this “normal people in strange situations kind of world.” And he wanted to bring back performance energy. So he hired a lot of people who had built-in home runs, like Cheri and Will. And Molly. Molly had already been hired the year before, but she really came into her own. But those first two episodes, I was like “I really want to help,” and I was obsessed with the OJ trial like everybody else, so I came up with the “evidence card” joke in the Johnny Cochran sketch for the first episode and then the second episode, believe it or not, I wasn’t thinking about doing anything and then my brother-in-law… So then the second episode was…
Chevy hosted.
Well, it was the verdict. That was the week of the verdict. Like, you know, so that’s why there was such a reason to do the OJ stuff, because we knew it was winding down. So I wrote the cold open for the first one, which was basically like a closing argument on Johnny Cochran’s part. And then OJ., like that Monday, was acquitted. And then my brother-in-law, Mitch Rutter, I saw him. I don’t remember if there was a Jewish holiday, like Rosh Hashanah or something. But we were at the table and he said, “What if OJ’s already back.” It was his idea. “What if OJ’s already back at NBC?”
Oh, he’s back on NBC with Costas?
Yeah. And I just thought that was so funny. And then I just wrote that up and then I told McKay about it, and he helped me write it up. He had it. He’s besides being hysterical and we’d already started to get along a little bit. But he also is a big sports guy. And, uh, you know, that’s not necessarily the easiest thing to find within a writing staff.
Yeah, they have, right now they have, um, Brian Tucker who’s really good with the sports sketches.
Okay.
At the time, but man, did that thing just destroy. People still talk about it. I do want to mention in the show’s defense, that “Church Chat” was done a lot when you were there.
Yeah.
But I would argue that it was, it was a device for topical humor. They would have guests and they would talk topical versus The Cheerleaders, which was fun, but it was the same thing pretty much every time.
Yeah. And I don’t think Church Chat was done as much as The Cheerleaders was.
Yeah, I think your’re probably right on that. So this is 92 to 93. I believe it was 92. Seinfeld hosts, and he does “Stand Up and Win,” because you write that. How soon does Larry David approach you with a writing gig for Seinfeld?
It was at the end of the week I mean that’s the only time I ever saw him, was, he’d come to the show with Jerry and he I think he had like three sketches on he had some very funny sketches on.
They all got… didn’t they get cut though. Did he actually get something on?
Oh. Maybe maybe. I think one of them… “Superman” was on. That was that was Larry.
That, and he got… he wrote something about a boat or a ship that I..
Yeah, bosins. Something about a bosin.
That got cut.
That got cut. Then there was one other I think that either had to do with Passover…
Oh, was “Elijah the Prophet” Lary David’s? It was Eljah, Seinfeld as Elijah?
I’m not sure if it’s Larry’s. I don’t know. I could look it up, but…
That show was brilliant. ‘92.
It was an excellent show, and “Stand Up and Win” was probably the biggest hit of that. Well, no, there was a Turners wrote a great, great piece where he was a teacher and the students were really dumb. The Turners wrote that.
I always wondered who wrote that. That show was one of the best shows I’ve ever seen. That Seinfeld episode was one of the best episodes I’ve ever seen, top to bottom.
I remember it being a very solid episode, and Jerry was a great host and he had a great sense of humor about “Stand Up and Win,” and Larry just at one point, “You want to write for the show? You know. You could write for the show. You could do it. We would hire you.” Larry had an eye, clearly, for sketch writers. That’s where he came from, and I wasn’t able to do it it was the only I think I said this the last time we spoke. It was the only sitcom I ever thought I could write for. The only sitcom I ever wanted to write for.
This was 92. And, of course, Steve Koren and David Mandel left SNL, and they went over there. So, yeah, he was definitely big into the sketch writers.
Yes. Korin, Mandel. I think there was one other from the show. Andy Robin.
Oh, okay.
Andy Robin didn’t write for SNL for a long period of time, but he was there for a little bit. And I believe Andy even still works with Jerry. worked on the Pop-Tarts movie.
Talking to Spike, actually, tomorrow.
Oh, and Spike. Spike’s from SNL.
Yeah, of course, of course. Yeah, he wrote update jokes. He wrote some update jokes. He was not ever hired as a writer. How did “Motivational Speaker,” when Bob Odenkirk was a writer at the show with Farley in 90 to 91, how did Motivational Speaker not get past read through?
I don’t think it ever got to read through.
That’s amazing that it took three years until it finally got on the show just because it was his signature piece at Second City.
It makes no sense. It made no sense. Yeah, Lorne had seen it at Second City, I don’t quite understand why nobody said “Well, that’s gonna be on the show within the first four weeks,” you know? I don’t know what happened. He might have read it at a read-through once. I don’t really recall what happened. I just remember somehow it came up when Christina Applegate was on that, you know, she and Spade would make really good teenage kids to be yelled at by Chris. And then it was just basically put in my hands to produce and handle. You know, I didn’t want to touch it, really. But then when I read it, I think I even may have watched. I bet I did. I bet I watched a video of the performance at Second City. and that’s where I felt like, “eh, you know for TV I think this sending is a little flat. And so that’s where I wrote this ridiculous tiny little coda where he’s, “Matt’s gonna shadow you, when you’re here, he’s there.” Whatever it was. And he’s going back and forth and he breaks the coffee table. And it worked. It was great. Farley did it magnificently. And it did help the sketch. And I felt great about somehow helping make an amazing character sketch, just a tiny bit funnier. But what was not good about it was that I don’t think Farley had ever, like, done anything up to that point where he had broken something, where he had done a clumsy Joe. I mean, the thing that was amazing about Farley from the day we saw him at Second City, where he became, he was instantly the most obvious hire ever, was his grace, was the fact that he was a big guy who was incredibly graceful and athletic. That’s what made him interesting. That’s not the only thing that made him interesting. But that was the physical quality that made him interesting. He did this bit. It was hysterical. But then the following year, and I don’t remember, you tell me, it was 92.
The Motivational Speaker came out at the end of 92 to 93. It was 1993. It was the second to last episode of that season.
Oh, okay. So then I left the show. Yeah, so I was gone. That was like my next to last show.
And then the next season, you came back and you worked on The Motivational Speaker when Sally Field hosted. It was Santa. You worked on it a little bit.
Yes. But then it became, yes, they wanted another one. And I don’t remember if that was my idea. I don’t think it was, but I definitely helped with it. And we did another pratfall, I don’t remember what damage happened, but then it became thing where that became the move with Farley.
It’s true.
Many sketches where something wrong would happen. And a lot of times it was hysterical. Fred Wolf wrote an amazing sketch that took place in I can’t remember it was a period piece and Farley
Oh it was “Little Women.” It was a little…
Yes yes
Yeah Fred Wolf was so I mean that guy Some of his stuff… Mr. Belvedere fan club
Oh yeah
I was gonna ask if you or Fred Wolf Wrote this one sketch which is Woody Harrelson Hosting on the finale, and it’s take off your shirt It’s all the guys at the beach
Think it was Sandler’s idea
Where Sandler has the outie belly button, you know, is everyone takes off their shirt?
I know. I remember the sketch. I’m pretty sure it was Adam’s idea.
Was it? And such a funny sketch. I always thought it was you or Fred Wolf, but Adam’s beat was the, got the biggest laugh with the out. They take off their shirts. Woody Harrelson’s like, come on, take off your shirt. And it’s like, Nealon is covered with fur and Carvey has a baboon heart. I was always wondered who wrote that. Bob Odenkirk, you get on Saturday Night Live. He’s on for three and a half seasons. Bob tod me, he got very few sketches on the show. He also told me, and he said this publicly, him and Lorne were not very fond of eachother. And I’m being very–yeah–they didn’t really like eachother that much. How did he last three and half seasons and also pissed off alot of the other writers. How did he not get fired?
Because he was, everybody knew he was talented and also, everybody knew that me and Conan and Greg loved him and we worked with him a lot and he did get some great stuff on the show. It wasn’t like Motivational Speakers was the only good thing he ever got on the show he got some great things on the show he just didn’t do it with the frequency of other writers But, you know, he’ll remember them better than I will.
He did “The Grumpy Old Man. He did the teeth, “The British Toothpaste.”
That was basically, yeah, that’s something we kind of came up with together. But he had more of it than I did. He definitely wrote more of that than I did. It was more his thing. He had, he wrote “Bushwhacked,” which is like the first time Dana ever played Bush, I think, or maybe the second. And the he wrote, I don’t know, he had a funny idea he did that I helped him write, for George Steinbrenner, where he played a boss who, what was it?
He had trouble firing people.
Yes, he couldn’t stand firing people.
He worked in like a store or something and he was..
Yeah, yeah. He worked in a little bodega or something, I don’t know. And it was really well done and popular and
He did “Love Toilet,” the commercial The Love Toilet as well that was his idea so yeah giving some praise out too.
I don’t think that was his idea.
It was 100 % his, and then Al Franken contributed to it. They worked on it together, The Love Toilet.
Oh okay yeah, I always thought of it as a Franken thing.
It was Bob’s idea and then Al…
Oh great. okay
Okay, so the whole Lorne, “That’s too Carol Burnett,” which he’s been saying since the 70s. I don’t think he says it anymore. Now, was he talking about the actor, the style of actors maybe playing over the top or the style of writing? When he would say “That’s too Carol Burnett,” what was he specifically talking about when he would say that to writers and performers?
I think that was more of a 70s thing. It didn’t come up a lot in my era. And I think that the thing I remember most is that he just couldn’t stand anybody breaking.
He threatened to fire people. I mean, that was his thing during that time, which is, you look at the show now and it’s unrecognizable from what he wanted the show to be in the 70s until I guess like, the mid 90s.
Well, you know, you get older and I think you take stuff less seriously, in general. It’s just television. I think, you know, he was in his, like, early 30s, and I’m sure the stakes were so high, and he wanted to make his mark, and he did, and he did it brilliantly. And sometimes this happened with Conan and our show where, you know, and I’m borrowing a phrase, he, “a Lorneism,” as they call it, he says, you define yourself, “When you’re young, you define yourself by what you don’t like.” And so I’m sure that some of the choices he made at SNL were defined by other shows that he didn’t want to be like, whether it was Laugh-In or Carol Burnett or any other variety show that had been on up to that point. He, you know, identified things he liked about them and identified things he didn’t like about them. And that begat original moves that made Saturday Night Live what it was. so there might have been other aspects of that were too “Carol Burnetty,” as he used to supposedly say, but I don’t recall anything beyond the breaking.
I don’t know if you’ve ever talked about this. I believe it was ‘89, it was Mike Myers, it was like his fourth show. It might have been ‘88. He’s gonna submit a sketch, and according to Mike Myers, you don’t want him to hand this sketch in, it’s too Bill & Ted’s Excellent Adventure. It’s been done. You don’t want to submit this sketch. And Myers is like, “You know what, I’m gonna put it in anyway. It’s the last sketch in the read-through, and it kills. And it’s “Wayne’s World.” Do you have any recollection of that conversation with him?
Here’s what I remember, and Conan has talked about this, too. He showed us some videos of the character, tthe Wayne Campbell character without a sketch around it. And we thought it was okay, didn’t kill us. It was just, you know, slice of life, kind of, semi -stoner dude from the Burbs. It wasn’t really a world I knew very well, either. So, because I grew up in the city and Conan probably didn’t hang out with those kind of kids in Massachusetts. So it didn’t really connect with us. That was when he first first got there. We were much much more attracted to the “Sprockets” character.
Oh man, that was so funny.
Well, and that was something that we understood more, and it was more satirical, and it was parodying pretentious European counterculture. Yeah, so we loved that, and we were much more interested in writing for that. And we did actually help him with a number of his Sprocket’s sketches over the years, as did Jack Handey. Jack Handey lovds Sprockets and ended up writing the movie with him.
Such a funny sketch. Yes. Have you read the screenplay? I mean, it was so funny, with Dick Van Patten. He was supposed to be in it.
No, but I would love to, uh, I would love to, but then Wayne’s World, I remember he put it in read through, it got kind of polite laughter. Then it went to dress rehearsal, didn’t do great, but I was, and it was a rare moment in the show’s run where I was in “The Room Where It Happens,” as it were. I was like, I had been promoted to co -producer with Tom Davis and Jack Handey. And I can’t remember if the Turners were in there. Franken was. Franken, yeah. I ended up asking out of that job because I felt like there are way too many people in the room now, and they’re protecting each other’s sketches. In my opinion. That’s how I felt at the time–that nobody would trash each other’s sketches. It became very political and I didn’t like being a part of it. I’m proudly one of the only people who’s ever asked for a demotion on the show.
I mean, one of your jobs as producer that was so noble that I can’t believe didn’t happen is you tried to get Colbert on so many times as a cast member. Marci Klein has said that she wanted Colbert, as well, from watching him at Second City. And it just never happened.
I don’t know.
I mean, everything worked out for the best for him. Everything worked out for the best. I mean, you tried to get him in as a writer for Conan on the early days. And he and Conan met in Chicago and Stephen was a bit nervous. And they just didn’t connect. But everything worked out for the best possible way for so many people that did not get that show, including Stephen.
You know, I wonder if Colbert had never done The Dana Carvey Show, if Lorne may have hired him because there was a period where Lorne didn’t want people who had done other like Mad TV or Dana Carvey. He kind of, there was another rule that he sort of had and then kind of softened on as the years went by. But in the late 90s, he, I think it hurt Carell as well. So Colbert ended up, you know, because of his “Waiters Who Were Nauseated by Food Sketch,” that’s, I think how, at the Carvey show, I think that’s how he got hired for The Daily Show. And then he brought Carell in. So…
It worked out.
It all worked out. Thankfully The Daily Show became this additional outlet in addition to Mad TV and SNL for sketch performers to be funny on a late-night show. They were just all playing they were all playing news reporters, but they were at least getting to be funny and get their faces out there.
I do want to point out after The Dana Carvey Show, Stephen was hired to write at Saturday Night Live and was there for maybe four episodes, not a long time. But he was there.
Yeah
And then everything worked out. This is called “Who Wrote It?” These are five-star sketches, and I was wondering who wrote them. “Superman’s Funeral,” when Sinbad hosted, this was November of 92, and Superman had died and Farley was The Hulk.
Yeah.
You were in that.
Yeah, I played The Penguin. I think Mandel and Franken, I think. But wait, before you, what were we talking about real quick before you got into Colbert?
Let me see. Mike Myers?
You were asking me about Wayne’s World.
Yes.
All I wanted to say was that, yeah, Wayne’s World had done modestly at dress rehearsal and I remember again, like I said, I was there were like six people in the room and I felt good about this I was like the youngest of the writers who were had been promoted to producer I advocated for Wayne’s World to get on the show because and I said, I didn’t it didn’t make me laugh that much. I was probably already too old for it. I was like, I don’t know. Maybe I was 30. Maybe I was 29. I felt too old for it at the time. But I said, I remember saying “We should put it on because we don’t have enough stuff that speaks to teenagers.”
It did okay. The first one I just remember doing okay.
And then it did okay. But it was, it really was something that was missing from the show because I had a feeling, like, I loved working on the show and I loved everyone in the cast but everyone in the cast was like a, they all looked like they could have been cast members on The Office or something. They all looked like they were you know 30 year-old middle American kind of straight-laced people there wasn’t any feeling of danger at the show. There weren’t any Belushis, and there weren’t any Farleys and there weren’t any Chris Rocks. All these people, they didn’t have to be as talented as Phil Hartman as far as sketch comedy ability. But the show that was something that was missing from the show at the time. Like Lovitz stood out the most as like a personality more than a “versatile sketch performer” but but even lovitz was like he looked like he was 40, you know? He was about he was probably 31 by now and you know but he didn’t he and he liked playing people from the 40s he liked playing authority figures and old -timey kind of characters, so he wasn’t speaking to teenagers necessarily, and I just felt like Mike was making an effort to reach out to an audience that I felt didn’t care about the show. I didn’t feel like the show was particularly relevant in 1989, as good as I thought it was.
The ratings spiked because of Wayne’s World, like you’re talking 91, 92. It was amazing. It was amazing.
Wayne’s World, I mean, the ratings, this show got became much more popular in the early 90s. And it was partly political humor that, you know, there was an election in 1992. You know, the show benefited because Dana was killing it as not just Bush, but as Ross Perot. So politically, we were hitting another stride, but also the injecting Mike, and then Adam, and Chris Farley, those three especially, but then Spade and Schneider and, you know, Chris Rock. It was all helping. It was also making the show feel–and look–younger.
And dangerous, a little bit, too, with some of the stuff that they were pushing.
And dangerous, yeah. Well I mean with Rock and Sandler. Sander was, he wasn’t really dangerous in like a risque way, but he was dangerous in that he was trying comedy that the show wasn’t doing. He was deconstructing character work, and he was aggressively silly. And he wasn’t trying to be satirical. No, and it spoke to young people. I remember when I went to the Super Bowl with Farley and went, we got to do the CBS Super Bowl pregame show with Pat O ‘Brien. So we all went to Minnesota, and Farley’s brothers came as well as did, you know, our girlfriends at the time. It was really fun. And I remember, I think it was maybe the first time I’d met at least one of Farley’s brothers. And I was saying, “Oh, my God, Chris has added so much to the show. He’s so great.” And they were like, “No, no, the guy we love the most is Adam Sandler.” Like, and they were young guys, and they were saying this because they were talking about, like, Crazy Spoon and, you know, Crazy Spoonhead Guy or whatever Adam’s Halloween costumes. Like, that kind of humor was so aggressively childish, but smart at the same time. And it just hit a nerve with a younger audience, just the way it did with the younger writers in the room, like we would giggle non-stop in the middle of this table read and people would look at us like we were nuts. You know, me, Conan, Greg, Odinkirk, Adam would be reading these shaggy dog kind of Update pieces that were just so aggressively absurd and stupid, but brilliant. And we could not stop laughing and people were like, “What, do you have you invested money in this guy? What’s going on?”
Yeah, some of the older people from the original cast, I’m only saying this because they said it publicly, Chevy Chase said when he saw Adam. he’s like “You should fire this guy.” And Franken, I know, just the sensibility–the generation thing–was not necessarily a fan of Sandler.
He came around, though. He came around. I remember like two years later, he said, “You’re brilliant.” And I remember feeling, feeling so great that Adam had broken through at that point, not just to kids, but to everybody.
Bill Murray, when he came in, he was one of the original people. He definitely, he was used to The Second City mentality, and he was maybe not the fondest–Rob Schneider mentioned this–of Sandler that week?
I didn’t notice anything like that. I was, I just worked on a sketch with Bill and, you know, I wasn’t around everybody at every, at all the time, you know, I wasn’t, I wasn’t privy to Bill being, looking down on anybody. I just worked with him on my own thing.
Was that “Frequent Flyer”? Is that the one that you wrote with him?
Yeah.
That’s what I thought. I am an official nerd. Who wrote the “Desert Island” sketch with Paul Simon and Victoria Jackson? Do you remember where it’s like they give each other gifts and victories are all these like elaborate things?
Great sketch. It feels like Andy Breckman or Jack Handey.
I thought it was George Meyer, but I wasn’t sure.
What’s the name of the sketch? Paul Simon, was this the Paul Simon and who, Robin Williams.
Victoria. No, it’s Victoria Jackson on an island?
No, but was it when they were on the same show together, Robin Williams and Paul Simon?
Oh, I don’t think so. It could. It could have been. It could have been. Yeah, maybe it’s Jack Handy. I wasn’t sure off the top of your head, but it’s a damn good sketch. Definitely a five -star sketch.
It’s one of those where I’m trying to look it up. I have a database here, so I’m trying to look it up for you.
Oh, man, that sketch is so damn funny. Yeah, Paul Simon has all these. You would think you’re on a desert island. He gives her this simple, like a seashell, and she puts together, this MacGyver type over -the -top stuff. Yeah, it was played so well.
It was wonderful. Wait, “Castaways”. Was that? Maybe it was called Castaways. Hold on. I’m looking for it.
I think it was.
Jack Handey. Handey. Jack Handey.
Oh, my God. It says in the database who wrote it?
Yeah, that’s why I’m looking it up.
Oh, my gosh. I have to get this thing. I mean, I have so many sketches like that. Did Mike Myers write that Robert Wagner piece where they’re in the restaurant and he’s like this suave guy?
No, that was Conan. No, that was definitely Conan’s idea.
Oh, that was Conan?
Yeah, where he can’t eat. He eats like a pig. I’m pretty sure it was Conan and Greg.
These are things I’ve always, I mean, you wrote the Matthew Modine cold open with the whole drill sergeant, Phil Hartman giving…
Yeah, Odenkirk helped me with that.
That was damn funny.
That was, yeah. Full Metal Jacket was one of my favorite movies.
I do want to mention the “French Class” sketch that you wrote. Lorne did not initially like the ending of this sketch. Is that correct?
That is correct.
And what were his notes?
He just didn’t want them to go to Paris and get the shit kicked out of them. It was just a…
It worked.
It did okay. It did fine. It was one of those where we pushed for it. The sketch could have had just a blow-off ending in the room. It was a very writerly…
It was funny.
No, it was funny. It was just… It wasn’t necessary. Okay, so I’m looking at the Wagner sketch, and it’s the four of us, but I’m positive it was Conan’s idea. His name is first. We always put whoever had the operative comedy idea first. So it says Conan, Daniels, Odenkirk, Smigel.
I wish people could see some of these sketches that I don’t think are online like “Chapstick” is one of my favorite sketches. And you wrote that.
Ooh, chapstick, yeah.
And that is, I don’t believe because of the music, because there are these sketches, people…
I don’t remember. There was music in that sketch?
Well, there’s certain sketches that you have, like “The Fifth Beatle” with Phil Hartman playing the tuba and they’re playing Beatles music and it’s like this is never going to get, and the Rolling Stones…
I’m pretty sure that was a Conan and Greg idea that we all helped on.
Oh man that was so funny. Phil Hartman’s like 20 years older than all the other Beatles.
Was that was he Albert Goldman? Was he playing Albert Goldman?
He might have been. I forget what it was. But it just made me laugh so hard. but there’s these things that you will never see most likely unless they clear them. But Chapstick was gold.
Oh, “Lip Balm” is what in the name of the sketch.
Oh, it is just called lip balm?
Yeah. It was called lip balm.
And it’s basically just everyone wants to use this. It’s like, “Oh, can I use this?” And it just progressively…
I feel like Jack Handey helped me with that. But I’m looking at, no, Conan, it was definitely my idea. but Conan’s listed first. That’s interesting. I don’t know. Anyway, it was, I remember having that idea. And then it says Conan and Greg wrote it with me.
I wanted to talk Jack Handey. Now, he’s just, when people talk about him, I, it’s always the same thing, you know, “Toonces,” it’s “Frozen Caveman Lawyer.” I mean, “Happy Fun Ball.” But there’s so much other stuff. Like, these are just my top three would be: “Johnny Canal,” which was John Malkovich, “Coach Dobbs,” with the Randy Quaid which never even got on SNL, but Coach Dobbs went on, like, The Best of Toonces, which the baseball, it’s not in studio, I don’t know if you ever saw it, but he’s a baseball coach, and the ball keeps fouling and hitting him. He’s in the ambulance being taken in, and it goes through the glass and it keeps hitting him. And then I was gonna saw the other one was “Green Hilly,” which he did with Christine Zander. I mean…
Oh, Green Hilly. Well, that was a big hit.
Yeah, that was him and Christine Zander. I’m just saying that there’s so many other sketches that he wrote, like, the “Whipmaster,” I think, was his that just made me laugh, that never get talked about.
Sure.
What are some of your favorites that you, that are not famous, that just made you laugh?
Well, I have to admit that I was obsessed with Toonces. Did I talk about this on the last show?
No. I mean, Toonces was a great, great piece.
I was obsessed with, particularly the part, the opening credits, where they used the live cat and they had the two arms operating the steering wheel. I mean, I’d never seen that done before, and I was so amused by it that I would literally run up to 17 where the offices were and videotape the pre-tape where they would be trying to do this. Whenever there was a pre-tape where they were using the real cat and manipulating it, and the cat just sitting around has no idea he’s in a comedy bit, to me this was the funniest thing in the whole world. And obviously a huge influence on comedy that I did later, whether it was Triumph humping a live animal, or, you know, TV Funhouse where Dino and I had a dog puppet giving birth to puppies and having them come out of a hole between the cat, or a cat, and then little kittens coming out one at a time. And just the idea that the kittens are, it just meant, nothing made me laugh harder for a while than the idea of using animals in ways where they don’t have to do anything, but they’re in a ridiculous comedy bit, and they have no idea.
Originally for Conan, I heard it was either Conan or you said that you guys were at least considering a petting zoo backstage. I don’t know if that was just like for a second that you consider that or that was maybe just an offhand joke.
I think Dave Reynolds from the original writing staff. I think he had some, I think that was a bit that we talked about doing where we have a petting zoo for kids. I don’t remember anything beyond that, though.
Did Handey write the hot wings, chicken wings restaurant?
I think that was Rob Schneider.
That sketch died on the air, and I always wanted to know how, it was Christian Slater hosted, and it just died. And I always was wondering with sketches like that, they must have just killed at dress to get the #1 spot.
Oh really? It was the #1 spot?
Oh yeah. Yeah, and that was a really good episode. “Dysfunctional Family Feud”…
Didn’t he host more than once?
Um, he did. But the second time he hosted was the year after you left and they did the second “Motivational Speaker,” and they did that Pearl Jam-type band.
Oh wait so the first time is the hot wings was the first time he hosted?
Yeah, he only hosted twice.
Okay I thought it was the second time he hosted but let me look it up. “Ron’s Wings and Things.” This is so strange to be doing this live, but what the hell. Writers: Rob Schneider, David Spade, Jim Downey. That sounds right
Wow. It, yeah it just, and that would happen back then, which was amazing. And then even to get past Update and have the sketches work was hard sometimes that’s why I thought it was amazing, Motivational Speaker, that they didn’t put until after update and it’s still, I mean, it killed. Would have killed any time and stuff, but normally it’s like, back then if you got after Update the audience sometimes wasn’t even with the show.
Wait, are you sure the wing sketch even made the show?
100%. And then it had a chyron at the end saying that his head had exploded and stuff.
This is really strange. I’m looking it up. It’s listed as being in the rerun, but not in the air show.
Maybe it wasn’t in the air but I definitely saw the sketch and I just, um, the show was really funny. “Bad Actors Forum,” or “Young Actors Forum.” Then they did that, that werewolf thing, which was so funny with Christian Slater, “I’m turning it into a werewolf.” And then he goes off camera and it’s like, you can see that he’s like kind of changing and it’s really bad production values.
Okay.
And so it’s a really, really funny show. He was going through the, the, going through around 8H into the control room because the whole Braves thing, it was like the audience was told beforehand to do the audience, like the Braves chop and it was the World Series.
Oh, right. Well, that was the whole John McLaughlin was in the Halloween cold opening.
McLaughlin Group, yeah, they did the walk on.
Yes, and I remember it was during the World Series, and I remember arguing with McLaughlin backstage about, oh, “Can you imagine how absurd it is that they want to change the name of all these teams?” Like, he found it ridiculous to change the name of the Cleveland Indians or something like that.
John McLaughlin. Yeah, the first sketch with John Goodman. Oh my goodness. And the first time I was ever at the show, Mary Stuart Masterson hosted, and it was, when Carvey says something about “How do you start the show?” And it’s like, “Live from New York, it’s Saturday Night,” and the band starts playing and it’s like…
Oh, right.
And Dana’s like, no, no, no.
“Show, show, show, here we go!”
Yeah, it was such a funny thing. And I know one of our listeners, Fard Mohammed, thought that that was actually the SNL band. Like, they messed up and they heard Saturday Night Live and they started playing, which was the illusion. I mean, it really seemed like it was a mess up.
No, no, no.
That was, I couldn’t believe.
That gave me such joy that he, that we got to have him say, “show, show, show, here we go.”
That was, I think, maybe the only time other than, like, the Eddie Murphy show where they maybe opened the show without a “Live from New York.” Sandler’s second sketch, I believe it was a second, this, we’re going to December of 1990. You wrote that Sabra sketch and you put Sandler in it, now, is it true that you went to your father and asked him advice about, first of all, can you set up the sketch and what did you ask your father? Why did you feel like you needed to go him for advice?
Sabra Shopping Network was the first one that I did. It was not kind, in terms of. You know, it was about a stereotype. It was taking an ethnicity, and depicting a stereotype. It was not necessarily associated with the most positive stereotypes that Jews, you know, I mean, it’s basically a couple of guys who work in an electronics store ripping off customers and or negotiating, you know, or haggling with them, which, you know, there’s that expression, you know, “Jew it down.” So obviously, these things are associated with negative Jewish stereotypes. But at the same time, these guys were all over Times Square when I was a kid. And still existed in the late 80s, early 90s. And Tom Hanks was the one who initially came to me and wanted to do an Israeli electronic store guy. He, I believe Tom Hanks came up with the expression “Sony guts,” but he didn’t have a real sketch in his mind, he just had that. And then I came up with, “Oh, this will be really funny if we do a Home Shopping Network, and the guys are haggling on Home Shopping Network.”
And the Shofars? “One Shofar for you!” And he presses a button, and the shofar comes up.
(Smigel imitates a shofar) Well yeah, because they had sound effects back then on the Home Shopping Network. It was really cheesy. Yeah, but for all these reasons, I was like, I was reticent. And I talked to my dad about it, and he said “It’s okay because people exist…” And in my mind, I thought if I don’t make fun of a certain stereotype within my own culture, then I have no right to do it about any other culture. I felt like I was almost obligated to do it when I put it in those terms. And he understood. And I think, you know, it’s funny you mentioned the Shofar because that’s the one thing that that I was a little iffy on myself. Like, is that really disrespectful? And I can’t remember how that landed with me and my dad. But I clearly I went with it.
It did well. That show was so much fun. That was “The Five Timers Club,” and that was “Mr Short Term Memory”…
Five Timer’s Club. That was the first one. You know, that was my idea.
Yeah, no. Mr Short Term Memory, the game show.
Oh, that was the game show. Wow, what a week.
Then they did Sabra. They did the Dean Martin. Hanks as Dean Martin.
Yes, which he showed last Christmas, when they, when the show got, you know, there was supposed to be a Christmas episode and then there was another COVID outbreak or something. And they ended up just having like a couple of pre -taped sketches. And then Paul Rudd and Tina and Tom.
Oh, yeah. I remember this now.
They just introduced, each one introduced one of their favorite sketches and all three of them chose something I wrote, which was crazy.
What were the others? Oh the Steve was it the Steve Martin wishes thing or like if I had….
Yes, Paul Rudd chose that “Steve Martin’s Holiday Wishes.” Tom Hanks chose, now this was not my idea it was but I worked on “The Carl Sagan Global Warming Christmas Special” where he played Dean Martin. I believe that was Greg Daniels’ idea but we all worked on it and then the third one was “Christmas Time For The Jews,” which Tina chose.
Oh yeah, I mean that was so much fun. You got Darlene Love. I mean it was a really really funny piece. So, in the fall of…
Wait. We were talking about right before that we were was it christian slater or um we were…
We were. We were talking about the Christian Slater show that was uh Bonnie Bonnie Raitt, I believe was the musical guest. And that was the Fall of ‘91, I believe.
That had one of my favorite stupid things that I can’t believe that it got on. Uh, it was called “Nich-Aid,” it was, it was a very complicated, uh…
It wasn’t “Lung Brush,” was it?
No, it wasn’t Lung Brush.
That was Tom Davis.
No, this is a completely forgotten sketch. For people who wanted to imitate Jack Nicholson.
Oh, yeah. It was 12 to 1. It was like the last sketch on the show.
For people who don’t want the burden of having to put their hand on their forehead. So all they have to do is put on this device and it blows their hair back so that their hands are free to do a fully, a Jack Nicholson impression, unencumbered by any limitations of hand gestures. Really stupid kind of Tim and Eric kind of idea.
It was really funny. That was the last sketch, I remember, before Goodnights.
But can I just say one more thing about the first Five-Timers Club?
Oh, please.
The first Five-timers club was, it was born out of an impression that Tom Hanks did of Lorne Michaels.
Really?
Did you know that? Yeah.
No, I didn’t.
So Tom used to do this thing where Lorne would talk about (imitates Lorne Michaels) “The first time you’re on the show, you’re all nervous and thinking, ‘Oh my God, how am I going to be and what’s,’ you know, and you’re just overwhelmed. ‘I can’t believe all of this is happening around me and how it works.’ Second time you’re on the show, you’re like, ‘Can I be as good as I was the first time?’ Oh, no, it’s going to be bad. You get freaked out, and maybe it isn’t quite as good. A lot of times it’s never as good because it doesn’t live up to the first one in your mind. The third time you’re on the show, you’re like, ‘Okay, I’ve done it twice…’” It just goes on and on, as if, like, it’s the same thing for every single person, which was so funny. And that was the inspiration because he was coming on for the fifth time. And I guess, like, again, me and Conan especially, we just, we always love to laugh about the kind of tension that the show had within itself, about whether it was going to be funny or it was going to be cool, you know? Because Conan and I were nerds and we always loved when the show felt unpretentious and just funny. You know, that’s just something we liked about shows that were inherently silly, like SCTV and Monty Python. With Saturday Night Live, we always laughed at the beauty shots at the beginning of the show in the montage and, you know, the aggressively hip New York at night feel to the show because we just–and so the, and the after party, you know.
That sketch, was that based on the after party where Carvey’s…
It was just based on the whole, you know, the duality of the show where like we’re trying to do like really silly comedy and at the same time the show really wants to be cool and feel, like, hip and exclusive and that’s where this idea of the Five-Timers Club came. It was kind of parodying that side of Lorne Michaels in our heads.
Steve Martin came up with the handshake, that idea–that was Steve’s beat?
I think we had the handshake and then I think I wrote recently somewhere that Steve definitely came up with “You’re great. No, you’re great,” or whatever. That was definitely his thing. Yeah.
