Fred Wolf has written and/or directed over a dozen feature films, including Tommy Boy, Black Sheep, Without a Paddle, Joe Dirt, The House Bunny and Grown Ups, but he says he owes it all to his three-year stint on Saturday Night Live, which began in 1993.
In his second appearance on Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff, Wolf goes deep on his time at SNL, sharing the origin stories behind some of his most fondly remembered sketches–including “Total Bastard Airlines (aka ‘Buh Bye’),” “Pasta Maker,” “Little Women” and John Travolta’s Saturday Night Fever-themed 1994 cold open.
He also discusses his collaborations with Chris Farley, Norm Macdonald, and Adam Sandler, and describes negotiating his own casting as a featured player on the show during one of his many two-hour walks through Beverly Hills with Lorne Michaels. (Word to the wise: Cede the sidewalk to Lorne.)
Click the embed below to listen now, or find Inside Late Night on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
And for more on Fred’s pre-SNL career faxing jokes to Johnny Carson’s Tonight Show, and writing for a series of failed late-night shows (including FOX’s The Late Show, The Pat Sajak Show, and The Chevy Chase Show) be sure to listen to his previous episode with Mark.
Show Transcript
Mark Malkoff: You know what I was watching? We’ll talk about it, but I was watching, um, one of my friends, um, who’s friends with Paul Provenza, let me know that Paul just put up all these clips of you from your show with, with Paul. And it’s fun watching you from 91 and 92. So we’re just, I was just watching some of those clips.
Fred Wolff: Oh, where’d he put them up?
He put them on his YouTube channel. I didn’t even know Paul Provenza had a YouTube channel, but, um, my friend, Dan, who’s good friends with him told me about it. So I was fun watching some stuff.
Oh, Dan?
Dan Pasternack. Yeah. Yeah. He’s told me he’s the one that requested you do your bit. He was very happy. And Dan was like, um, no, Paul has clips up. So it was really fun. I was just watching a clip actually on the YouTube channel of, it’s a cold open where Paul brands you. You actually have to like, I think, pull down your pants and then, and then he brands you and then it cuts to that. And then that’s the opening title.
That’s hilarious. Yes. That’s um. I, uh, I’ll do, I’ll make fun of myself all day long, all day, my whole life. But that was the one bit where I go, Paul, really, really? I don’t know why. I just didn’t know about that.
I didn’t know where it was quite where it was going, especially for, um, in 90, 90, 91, but, um, it was, you got like Steve Allen, all these amazing people were on the show, which was fun.
I love that so much. Oh, it was, it was just comics and, uh, it was on, it was on five nights a week to, uh, what was Comedy Central? We were saying the other day, Ha! TV and…
It was a Ha! Network or the Comedy Channel. It was one of those things. I love talking to people that were on television back then because You know, there are now there’s like 400 channels that are so many options, but from you being on that show, you were getting recognized constantly from being on the show, correct?
I was, and, um, I, uh, I didn’t, this is kind of, it’s gonna sound kind of weird, but I never, first of all, I never thought I would have any appeal at all to an audience. I never thought ahead of like, Oh, I wonder if I’ll get like people that want to see my act or whatever, uh, comedy act. But the show… I’ve heard this about early days of Saturday Night Live too, is that they had no idea what they had on their hands. Uh, I was reading a book about how Chevy, actually Chevy did confirm this with me, that they’re walking around and they had no idea why they were getting mobbed. And they realized they’re on TV on NBC 11:30. It was a brand new show and they didn’t know if anybody was watching or not. And I think that was kind of what was going on with the Provenza show is there it is, it’s on prime time, eight o’clock, five minutes a week. And I was shocked that people knew who I was, they knew my name and they would kind of shout it out and they started gathering. And next thing you know, the crowd gets bigger and bigger. And I had never, ever thought that I would ever be at the center of any kind of crowd like that. And, uh, it got to the point where there are hundreds of people.
And like, I’ll tell you one thing really quick is that, my wife had a event when she was about 22, 23 years old, a very, a very bad one, had to do with a serial killer. Believe it or not. And, uh, a guy came into her apartment that had been following her for one week and, uh, he was going to. Yeah, killer and, um, he ended up killing a whole bunch of other people and this is a really, really bad story.
But finally, a woman that he was doing this to, literally kill him with a shotgun. And we’re very happy about that. Goodbye guy. But, um, so I met her fairly soon after that happened. And so she was. You know, she had trauma, very much, you know, PTSD, and there’d be these crowds like forming around me because of Comedy Central and I’m on the show and I’m even, I’m going, who are these people? What’s going on here? Why do they know my name? What’s going on? And we’d be walking around and there’d be, they’d be following us and all that sort of stuff. And she started getting really nervous about it because she still had PTSD. I didn’t know what to do. Like, first of all, I really liked this woman that I was, we were dating, we’re now married 32 years.
But she didn’t like being with me because of that. The crowd thing. And, uh, just when she was sort of telling me what are we going to do here? I think we need to think about our relationship here. This guy pedals by on his, uh, look, we have like a hundred people around us. And she goes, you know, this can’t keep going on. And this guy pedals by on a ten speed just flies by. He goes, Fred Wolf. And my wife goes, that was, he wanted to tour to France last year. Like she’s a huge fan of bike riders, you know? And she goes, oh, okay. Well, that guy’s. I’m okay. We might meet a guy like that one day. Okay. We’re fine.
It’s okay.
No, not, yeah, it was a bizarre thing. I mean, I have that right. Basically. I think she was in love with me and she wasn’t gonna leave me. There was no,
I mean, you’re Fred Wolf. I do want to mention, I talked to, um, the late Ken Ober when, you know, Ken Ober, early Remote Control and I’m sure Colin Quinn had the same thing. Ken was saying the same thing that you were saying that, you know, just being on cable back then. I mean, he was just getting. You know, people were just mobbing him wherever they, they went. Um, it was definitely looking back right now. Um, just the ratings, the amount of eyeballs that were on these shows. I mean, they got way more than anything. Like most of network network TV is probably getting now let’s consider it a hit. I mean, if like a couple million people are watching you, it can be considered. It had been every single night, especially being on like that, how Remote Control was on MTV and that you were on the Comedy Channel.
Who was, it was, uh, it was Ken Ober, Colin Quinn, and there was a woman, uh, forget her name.
Oh my goodness. Was it Kari Wuhrer? It was, there were two women. I think it was, forget the, and then Sandler would play Stud Boy and then Dennis Leary would come on and, um.
They had great people. Yeah. And you’re, you’re right about that. I guess it was because I remember. The girl I was dating way before my wife… I can’t stand that woman. I love my wife is, uh, I would go over to her house, uh, to watch MTV. Because, I mean, I would literally trek over after I got off work just to sit there and look at this thing because it was brand new. All this stuff was crazy. Cool. And, um, yeah, it was all new. And it was, I guess people really were watching it. Like, people our age were watching at that point. Right? Because there wasn’t much for us.
And then, uh. It seems like Comedy Central. I’m trying to think of what it was before Comedy Central. It was a combination of two distinct channels that both had their own audience, but then they combined it became like a behemoth. And I’m trying to think what it was, but, but for Provenza was like, um, he was the man for it. Uh, Provenza did stand up and he was a really funny guy and, uh, he was part of that New York contingent that came out to L. A. And they dominated once they came out. It was just a whole new fresh take on comedy. And, uh, it was like 82 83 or something like that.And Keenan was part of that group. Keenan Wayons. We were talking about last time.
Oh, Keenan Wayons. Yeah. You mentioned that that hilarious story. Yeah. Provenza was going on Carson and then I It was interesting because, you know, I, um, I’m a little younger and I was, they had this Nickelodeon show, I don’t even know if you’re aware of it, that Provenza hosted a kid’s show called Kids Court, and it, he was the, yeah, he was just kind of kept order, and they would have these, like, mock cases, but real kids and stuff, and it was like, fair or unfair, and, um, so that’s how I knew him at first, and then, um, I don’t even think I knew he was a stand up, maybe. Yeah, so prolific. So funny. And definitely, anybody listening, go to Provenza’s YouTube channel and check out his clips and watch Fred.
The last time we were talking, we teased this, so I don’t want to go too long without mentioning it, is um, the season finale of the 94-95 season David Duchovny hosted and it was the last sketch of the night and I distinctly remember where I was watching it. I was watching with my friends. I remember I was at my friend Steve McElwain’s house and it was The Polar Bear sketch. And I want to talk about the Polar Bear sketch, and then I want to talk about a well known director who, subsequently, you had no idea, he’s one of my, I love this guy’s work, um, who is a huge fan of that sketch, now how, can you tell me, tell, talk about how that sketch came about and the premise?
Oh, sure. Yeah. So the, uh, the premise, it was, it was the five, we call it the five-to-one piece. It’s the last piece of the show. And, um, it’s about five guys at the zoo. And this really happened. It was in the news, that people were going into the polar bear cage, which I can’t do that. But, uh, so this idea was that one by one, there’s, uh, five cast members and one by one, they go, I’m going to the polar bear cage. And each one that goes in gets killed by the polar bear. And they still continue to go in and, uh, It coincided with the people that were leaving the show, uh, and that would be their last sketch that they did for SNL as as cast members, and, um, it was, uh, bittersweet in a lot of ways. I loved everyone in that sketch or my favorites on the show. So I. You know, it got laughs. It did fine. Uh, it didn’t destroy and it’s a 5-to-1 piece. So there are a lot of times are quiet. It’s a good place to study, the 5-to-1 pieces on if you’re want that library vibe, but, um. They still told me that they liked it and it has a certain type of humor to it, but it was mostly that I liked it because it was sort of a metaphor and symbolic and so forth. But so. Anytime that would happen where I had a sketch not do great, I would go into like a severe depression that would last for like two hours. Like they’re going to fire me. I’m awful. I suck. Oh, my God. I was done. Why did I think that was funny? And that was one of the ones that didn’t kill. And it was the last piece of the season..
I want to interject just really quick that all the cast members were playing themselves. So it was like Adam, uh, Sandler, Farley, Norm, Jay. They were playing them themselves, right? I think that was my, that’s what I remember. At least they weren’t playing characters.
Yes.
So they’re playing themselves. So the symbolism is there. And also, you know, It was a hard show in terms of the audience laughter. Like the, Zagat’s thing with Farley and Sandler’s considered classic. Now that did well. Um, that was very early on the show, but I mean, that was a tough season. There were some Deon Sanders, Paul Reiser. There were some tough shows with audiences that just. From the cold open, I mean, they, they were not letting standbys.And now I think last week, somebody told me that they was like 70 people for dress in live and they weren’t letting any standbys in almost any, and that does affect the audience and their, the quietness, I mean, is, is really tough from an all VIP audience.
You would actually know this, uh, because, you know, everything I hope your fans know how brilliant you are on these years. Anyway, uh, is when I first saw the show, I went to The Tonight Show, a taping of it when I first got to L. A. Uh, my friend Blake Clark was doing stand up on there, which I couldn’t believe. I was there in the audience for the Johnny Carson show and, uh, you know, a lot about Johnny Carson.
I do. Yeah. Blake went on a lot by the way. Blake went on like 15 times or something. I tried to get him on the podcast. Yeah. He was, it was amazing how prolific he was as well with his standup.
Yeah, yeah, and he’s great. And, uh, we’re good. He’s the first friend I met in L. A. and he happened to be a stand up comedian. I have a story about that. Blake is on a sitcom now. Like, you know, he was in Vietnam. He was a lieutenant in Vietnam, and he’s still working. It’s amazing. But anyway, so when I was in the audience, the first thing that struck me is when Carson came out, I had the chills and I, I was in shock that I’m watching this guy live. I’d seen for so many years, my, all my whole life on TV, but I couldn’t hear him that well. It was like a, a very odd tinny sound. And obviously they’re thinking about the home audience. They’re thinking about the 8 million watching out in the United States to not worry too much about the 200 people, whatever it is, right there. It had, uh, just an odd sound field to it, and it made it seem less flashy, but then I started thinking, okay, they’re doing this for a reason, but I could barely hear him. And it turns out that obviously that’s a good thing for TV. They know what they’re doing, the engineers. And Saturday Night Live kind of had that going, where if something did destroy a lot of times, the home audience doesn’t know that it’s getting really good laughs in the studio. But when I have a sketch die, I’m talking about silence. I’m talking about bad, no reaction at all. I think that by and large, second life has always been a show where. There’s something different about it. It’s not punchline-driven. It’s sort of attitude driven and things sort of get by sometimes without getting the huge laughs. They still might click somehow for whatever reason. And Polar Bear apparently was one of those sketches. Uh, can I tell you a quick story about, uh, what kind of, uh, it has to do with that director you were talking about, okay?
Yeah, please.
So I watched this movie called Boogie Nights, and I freaked out. I couldn’t believe how good this movie was, and this is before the internet and all that sort of stuff. So I wouldn’t really know much about the director. I wouldn’t be able to look him up as much, but I idolized this guy because that movie was amazing. I watched it like 20, 25 times in the theater. So we’re a bunch of us were flying out to New York City and Sandler. It was, uh, his plane and he goes, Hey, Fred, you’re a fan of that dude, Paul Thomas Anderson, aren’t you? And I go, wow, this guy is amazing. He goes, well, he’s going to be in New York. I go, dang, dang. He goes, uh, he’s going to be at SNL on Saturday. I go, what? He goes, he’s there. He’s just hanging out and he’ll be there. And, um, I told him you might want to meet him. And I go, what the–, I was like, so damn excited. I actually kind of blew off what I was supposed to be doing in New York city, what I was supposed to be working on. All I could think about was meeting PTA. So Saturday, uh, Sandler and a bunch of us went to, uh, you know, we’d all left by then, the show. And we went by and it was packed. It was a Saturday crown, uh, live show, just a packed house. And Sandler comes up to me, he goes, Hey, um, Paul Thomas Anderson’s upstairs on nine, the ninth floor, uh, outside Lorne Michaels’ office. And he’s waiting for it. And I go, Oh my God. Okay. So like, I’m super nervous because I’m an idiot. And he will know within five seconds. Cause he’s brilliant. And, uh, I know a secret way to get to Lorne’s office fast on ninth floor, which is like a maintenance stairway. And as I’m going up, and he’s supposedly waiting for me as I’m going up, a fan stops me on the hallway or in the stairway there, and, um, he’s a really nice guy. And he’s talking about Polar Bear. He’s talking about that sketch. He starts saying, I saw the sketch and it’s amazing. And I think you wrote it and tell me about this. And I. I always try to be nice to anybody that wants to say anything to me, but with him, it kept going on and on, I say, oh, thank you. That’s so nice. Thank you. But I’m going to go ahead and sneak past. Oh, what’s that? Oh, yeah. Yeah. That was Jay Mohr. Right? Right. Oh, yeah. Sandler said that line. That’s right. Oh, anyway. Nice to see you. I got to run and he just kept talking and talking and talking and I’ll never be rude to a fan. But finally I said, uh, dude, I gotta go. Okay, buddy. Thanks. Sorry, man And I race up to uh the ninth floor and Sandler’s up there and goes, huh? What’d you think? I mean, what are you talking about? He goes, you were just talking to paul thomas anderson. What are you talking about? Like what that guy on the staircase with Paul Thomas Anderson? He was talking about my sketch Polar Bear and I was trying to get past him to go meet him The biggest nerd in the world was Paul Thomas Anderson and uh made me feel better about myself, by the way But, uh, God dang, that was fun. That was great.
You did talk to him more though. After that..
We did, we actually, um, actually, uh, what’s the movie that came right after, uh, right after Boogie Nights? Um, uh, you know, uh,
Punch Drunk Love, or was that before? I don’t remember the sequence of things.
It was, uh, before Punch Drunk Love, uh, uh, Sandler and Paul, but that’s how they got, they knew each other.
Magnolia?
That’s right. You got it. Uh, So we did hang out afterwards and I didn’t want to tell him I thought he was the nerd on the staircase. I didn’t want to say that, but we started talking and I couldn’t stop talking about Boogie Nights, you know? I went on and on and on asking him this question, asking him this question, this question. And then finally he said, Oh yeah, my latest movie, um, opened last Friday, Magnolia. I went, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I liked it. Hey, so in Boogie Nights, when he, I’ll swear to God, what an idiot I am. But god, I love that movie. I like Magnolia, but Boogie Nights. Let’s go.
He’s a phenomenal filmmaker. I really like his stuff. So Helen Hunt comes in to host the show. This is March of 1994, and the first thing you pitch her because you wrote a really famous sketch that we’ll talk about Buh Bye, which, you know, people still do that today. Uh, so, but is the first thing that you pitched her before Buh Bye was the Pasta Maker sketch, which ended up being the season finale with Heather Locklear a bunch of months later, but is that what you pitched Helen Hunt initially?
Um, yeah, actually, yeah, um, there’s a, um, uh, a Monday night meeting in, uh, at Saturday Night Live when the new host comes in and the host sits there and all the writers, all the cast, a bunch of the crew, they’re in Lorne’s office. And, um, everybody sort of talks for about 20 seconds about what they’re going to work on that week and so forth. And the host listens and. And then the host will say something towards the end there and it’s a, it’s a routine ritual. And, um, I, it came to me and they go, Fred, Fred, what, what are you going to be working on this week? And Lorne Michaels had in his office, a phone where there’s like, 5 or 6 different channels on it. And you can make them all ring by pushing a certain button that I knew of. I’d gone in and tested out this whole thing. Where you push this button and all the ringers go off like all 5 lines ring really crazy and really loud. And so I said, my sketch is about, I think I’m gonna be working on is about a woman who says crazy stuff. And every time she says something crazy on an infomercial, the switchboard lights up and offended people. And it killed that phone thing killed. Spade said afterwards, by the way, that he’s never said this to me before, but he said, I was jealous of you. I can’t believe you got that phone deal. He killed with that phone deal. He kills with his actual bits and comedy is supposed to be killing with. I’m killing with stupid devices. A prop act, I was, for a second there. But the idea was essentially that a woman is selling a pasta maker infomercial, but she’s saying the craziest stuff to sell it. Like, for instance, you’re saying that this pasta maker, for this price. And it’s so easy to use even a Puerto Rican can figure it out? And when she says stuff like that, the switchboards light up in offense, you know.
She doesn’t, she doesn’t realize that that is why they’re letting up. She thinks they’re selling pasta makers and she’s one of these people that is just completely clueless, completely racist around the board and just has the biggest smile on her face trying to sell these pasta makers and, And doesn’t realize that that’s why the board and you have that visual with the board all lighting up.
Yeah. And so, you know, she’s clueless and, um, the person, Mike Myers actually played the, uh, the co host trying to sell the Pasta Maker. He’s going out of his mind because she’s saying crazy stuff. But like you said, she has no idea it’s bad. We hit every single race, every religion, every type of person where she’s just saying clueless crazy stuff and Helen Hunt read the sketch and she said, I’m not going to do this. I’m not going to say that all this stuff here. A little too much for me, but thank you.
It’s like Seinfeld with Mr Belvedere. It just wasn’t a fit, which actually I have to say is good for a host. If they’re uncomfortable, it might show in their performance. She passed on it and then, um, Mike Myers played Richard Hayden, who if, uh, I’m sure people remember that, that that was, um, from Tommy boy, that was, um, Spades character, right?
It was. That’s… you and I talked on the phone about this. Love so much that you researched that and you found that out. Richard Hayden was a friend of mine in New York city. I had a, a bunch of people that I never saw again. Once we moved, uh, remember this is all before the internet, all before cell phones, and, uh, he was one of my best friends and I actually my best friend. And I dropped his name in sketches and in Tommy Boy. Yes, that was data space character name. And, uh, I got to talk to him about 15 years ago. I tracked him down through other friends and called Richard Hayden and said, Hey, it’s Fred Wolf. And he remembered me. And then I said, Hey, I’ve been using your name. Have you seen it anywhere? He goes, no, no. And then he called me back like three days later, he had seen Tommy Boy. And he said, I’m now cool to my kids. I can’t believe that. He says, Richard Hayden. And he had not seen that, you know, all those years, but luckily now he has, I guess. And, uh, yeah. There’s still one outstanding one. Ronald Ford is the other name I use constantly, and no one knows where Ronald Ford is. And I want to say hi to him. He was the coolest. That was really cool. By the way, with Helen Hunt, um, she was nice about not wanting to do that sketch. And luckily, Buh Bye was the other one I had that, that week. And so she was fine. But at the end of the week, after Buh bye at the wrap party, I just said, you really didn’t like that one sketch, huh? And she said, well, I didn’t, I didn’t not like it. It’s just said. It’s not my thing. And that’s fair. That’s fair. You know?
Yeah. I want to talk about Buh Bye in a second, but getting back to Pasta Maker with Locklear, who is, I guess, up for anything. Steve Corden wrote a really funny sketch that episode, um, called The Flirt, which it went back and forth with Kevin Nealon and her. And it was just really, really funny beats. And that was such a good finale. It was Janet Jackson, Heather Locklear. And then between Dress and Live, Lorne, Lorne actually asked for you to tone one of the beats down, correct?
Yes. So, um, you know, again, we hit everything, every race, everything we could, but Lorne, uh, called me into his office and it had done really well in dress and everybody was happy. This sketch was going to kind of lead off the show, but he said, well, you, um, you hit Jews twice. I said, what do you mean? He goes, well, you know, it’s better to spread it around. Let’s hit everybody. Not pile on any one group. And I said, well, okay, well, what are you saying? He goes, well, the last one, maybe, uh, change that to something else. The punchline at the end, which is act now, price will never be Jewed down so low again, and, um, that had killed and the, uh, dress rehearsal. And so he said, take it out. And so I’m going to take it out. I’m gonna do what Lauren says. So I run down to the studio. And the show is going to be starting in about 10 minutes and I didn’t know… I had to come up with something as good as that one or try to get a laugh. I couldn’t. I was just pacing trying to figure out what to do. And I had to run to cue cards if I thought of something. And I actually had Jim Downey and Robert Smigel. Come walking up and say, what’s going on? I go, Lorne wants a replacement. The last bit they both said, but that one killed. I go, I know, but he wants a replacement or you got an idea. I had the mighty Jim Downey and the mighty Robert Smigel pacing with me trying to come up with an ending. We’re like five minutes of those guys are total geniuses. And, uh, I’m like their shadow. And we’re trying to come up with something, trying to come up with something, trying to come up with something and all of a sudden, this, Giant star, giant star comes, he calls out my name, he goes, Hey Fred, what are you, what are you guys doing? And I said, uh, I’ll be right with you, I’ll be right with you, uh, John Doe. And, uh, he goes, wait, what are you, what’s going on there? And I go, uh, the show’s gonna start in like three minutes now, uh, can you hang on? Uh, he goes, hey, you seem to be working on something. And I go, yeah, I’m trying to come up with a joke. And you go, Oh, for that cost to make a sketch. And I go, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I, can I, can you hang on a second? Cause I thought I was going to lose Downey and Smigel. And he goes, uh, how about, um, you couldn’t buy it cheaper off a drunken Indian> I was perfect. And I ran to cue cards. They were laughing just off top of his head, like that.
It absolutely killed one of my favorite beats in that sketch is Sandler playing David Brenner, who’s calling to object about the Holocaust, which, um, Heather Locklear’s character talked about. And he he’s like, I’m really upset. But the real reason he’s calling this is to plug his dates at Bally’s. He’s like, I’m upset at the Holocaust, but also I’m going to be at Ballys on… and then he mentions the day completely. That’s the reason he’s calling in.
That’s hilarious. Because in Pasta Maker, I actually went off, the Holocaust actually got a hit. That’s what Lorne was talking about. Uh, Heather Locker says, this Pasta Maker, uh, you say is this price and this good and this easy to use, but we’ve heard that before on TV and it turns out it’s all a lie, like the Holocaust. And you know, that was the one that Lorne said, well, we can keep that one, but maybe lose, that price would never be due down so low again. Uh, Sandler got away with some great stuff, really, really great stuff. Um, It’s I think it’s the likeability factor, but man was he edgy as hell and it worked for him so well,
Can I tell you something?
Oh, yeah, please. No, tell me. No, tell me.
I, uh, in lunch lady land, uh, which I loved that he did with Farley dancing around, Norm Macdonald and myself are in that sketch the whole time we’re standing there. I’m garlic bread and norm was what was he and but we were we were there in the group and we were talks, you know, we’re supposed to be just dancing while they’re singing that and we’re talking amongst ourselves about how much Sandler kills how giant he kills. And I was saying, Norm, you’ll never kill like Sandler. That’s what we’re talking about. So, if you ever see that again, Lunch Lady Land, and you see the two of us back there, that’s us talking about how much funnier Sandler is than Norm Macdonald is, and the entire time. I went to somebody’s house for dinner, my wife and I, a few years back, and they said, you were considering life our favorite sketches, lunch lady land. As a matter of fact, we were just watching it before you got here. My daughter here has seen that at least 100 times. She was in 7th grade, you know? And I go, wow, I’m in that and I go, what they really had a queued up and walked into the room. And I point out something, the garlic bread, they had seen it that many times didn’t know is in it. And, uh, didn’t care when they found out it was in it.
It’s you, David Mandel. Sarah Silverman, I believe in it. That was put up in January of 94 with Sarah Gilbert and Counting Crows. Um, really, really funny. I was there at dress. That’s why I know because I was there when I was in high school.
This is amazing. I want your listeners to know that you, you just, it’s like an insane, the retention rate you have for something like that is so incredible.
I appreciate it. I wish I could do that with physics or the periodic table, but I’ll, I’ll take it. Um, I’m happy with my life. I, you know, you mentioned that there was a famous comedian, um, backstage for when Heather Locklear, and this would happen all the time. You’d, you’d just be, would be at work and be during, um, the live show or before the live show. There could be people you just never know who’s going to be walking around. When you did the Buh Bye sketch, I don’t know if you know this, but during bye bye, um, in the audience, it was like the third row was Madonna and Tupac Shakur and Madonna’s friend, Ingrid, is it Costanza? So they, they were watching.
Really?
Oh yeah. Oh, I was in the green room. I was at an high school. I was, I, um, camped out all night for tickets. They would not let any standbys in for dress or live. And I made friends with this gentleman named Bill, who was a security guy. And he got me green room passes. I was up there with me and my brother, um, Chris, my friend, Dan Brown. And we’re, it’s, it’s on nine. It’s right next to Lorne’s office. It’s this giant plate of glass and it’s an amazing view of home base and music. And we look out and, um, yeah, no, it was, it was, they were in the third row and then after update, Um, or no, as after Snoop was done with his music with his song, the three of them got up and then they went, you know, when, if somebody gets up from the audience and they want to go downstairs to, to, um, the dressing room and music, they have to pass by the green room and then Lorne’s office and then go down the stairwell. So yeah, they passed by and I was like, it’s Madonna and Tupac.
So you were a fan of the show enough that you would literally would try to go to, uh, see Dress, or Air, whichever one.
I was three and a half hours away in Hershey, Pennsylvania, and I was, yeah, I would try to get in as much. It was just hard. I mean, they let people in now all the time because they want to ensure that the audiences are good. I mean, they will never let that happen again that they did during some of those rough shows like Sarah Jessica Parker and REM, just tough shows where they would not let anybody in, and it really did affect the audience. I mean, it’s, that’s the only reason that they let the 70 people, 60 people in every week is because those are the ones that, I mean, Dana Carvey. And I talked to Smigel about this when Carvey got his, uh, Dana Carvey show on ABC, one of the first things he implemented was no VIP tickets. We’re not doing VIP tickets because…
Yeah, that’s smart.
They were burned so many times. Um, your pal Rob Schneider was saying that they, the shows have been ruined. And I remember Emilio Estevez and Pearl Jam is a perfect example. All everyone was there for Pearl Jam. They let all the talent people in, and they actually in the cold open have to acknowledge that it’s not going to go well. Um, it’s something like, it’s like the good news is this, the bad news is Live from New York at Saturday Night, because it’s just the dress and it was all vips. And it’s just, um, you can’t play to that. I mean, it’s, it’s really, really tough to play to that. I think that that was not, that was a really, that would not happen now. And it would be interesting in the last 20 years to see if they did not let standbys and what would happen. And I have a feeling there would have been some seasons that the same thing happened by, by far.
That’s really interesting. Really smart. Yeah, that is smart to do that because, you know, comics are famous for when we watch our own, you know, our friends on stage. If we like something, we’ll actually like a huge approval sign is when we go, I like that one. Yeah, I would do that joke. That kind of stuff. We’re not cracking up. You know, no one’s really laughing out loud. That’s really smart. You know, that combined with… There was something else about starting live that hit me. I remember when Rob said, I have a chance maybe to get on there. If I wrote some sketches that were any good, I studied, like, I literally got up off the couch and like maybe six inches from the TV set, staring at it. I don’t know why that helps, but I literally would stare at it going, what are they doing here? They’re doing something different. Like, what is that? What’s the move that SNL does? And one of them, as we talked about earlier, that they’re not punchline driven, you know, and there’s no rim shot type stuff. Lorne would say, we’re not Carol Burnett, you know, and we all love Carol Burnett Show. I used to love it as a kid watching it, but we’re not doing that. He would say, we’re doing something different. And for Lorne to have the trust in the fact that even though some stuff isn’t killing, it’s somehow seeping into the culture is pretty phenomenal. That’s a really good move.
I would say Pasta Maker. It takes a minute. Belvedere takes a minute. Mr. Belvedere Fan Club for it to, to build. Um, whereas it’s a different style with the Carol Burnett stuff. It’s very quick, get to the premise and just joke, joke, joke, where the Belvedere thing, it’s like Victoria Jackson talking about pepper, Pepperidge Farm cookies and it’s stuff like, it’s like, where is this thing going? But it just builds up the weirdness and it builds up this world and then the payoffs and stuff. No, I’m really glad you went that way.
Now, Buh Bye utilized, I believe it must’ve been almost everyone in the cast. Cause you had even Tom Davis was in it. I don’t know. You have writers that are in this sketch. And I remember if you’re in the audience, it was all the way back, the set was all the way back to the left. It killed. I mean, I remember watching that. How was that at the read through and rehearsal? Did it, was it pretty much the same from read through and how did that evolve? And how did you think the sketch went? Cause people still quote it to this day.
It’s, it’s really nice. It’s really flattering that they do. Um, that, uh, was based on, uh, I really am usually kind of either ignored out there, uh, or a lot of disdain headed my way when I’m out and about in the public. I’m an ugly man, Mark.
Not true!
But when I got off a airplane flight, I would swear every time the flight attendants would be saying to everybody, bye and thank you for flying United or whatever. Thank you. That’s good. And then I would pass by and they’d be silent. And then they’d go right back to the person behind me. Yeah, you know, nice to see you. Okay, great, great, great. And I noticed that when they said goodbye to me, they said it with a little more venom in their voice, a little bit more like, buh bye. And it. It stuck to me, I swear, Mark, I’ve kind of heard for years, buh bye. And by the way, it’s the one thing I do better than Spade. Spade is so much funnier than I ever would be. But I say the buh bye a little bit closer to the way I envision it, which is buh bye. Buh bye. Uh, So I told Spade this all the time. I said, a lot of times we’d fly together before we were even on SNL and I’d say, watch, watch, I’ll get off before you watch now. Everyone loves Spade all the time, but with me, they really did do that silent thing. So I was at SNL, uh, I just flown in from LA and I said, hey, Spade, we got to do something. I got this buh bye thing. I got to do something. I’m gonna write it up, whatever. When I wrote it up, it took maybe 20 minutes. That was that just flowed, because it was my life basically being hated by the flight attendants. He read that, and he made it so damn funny. It was crazy what he put in there and the way he said it, the way he did it. And then Helen Hunt was the perfect person to do it with, because she looks like she has disdain for a lot of the people.
They sold it. Yeah.
It’s funny, you mentioned Tom Davis. I was going to be that guy. We needed extra people, but I said, uh, man, I don’t know. Maybe I shouldn’t be in this case. And then Tom Davis is in it. But, uh, uh, thank you for saying that it, it actually, what I liked about it, I think is that it was a combination of something kind of slightly interesting, but also it actually did get laughs. It got laughs in the studio and that was nice to hear. Yeah.
Buh bye absolutely killed. And that season or the, yes, it was that season or the season after that, actually the season after that was a little bit, it was tough. It was definitely a, still a transition year. Uh, they’re still trying to build on the writers. A couple of people like Chris Elliott and Janeane Garofalo came in, Laura Kightlinger. Um, they were still trying to, you know, figure it out a little bit, but there were still some amazing sketches. One of my favorite, um, was the Travolta cold open and John Travolta comes in with Seal. I still, to this day. But some of my favorite cold opens and some of the people’s favorite cold opens are the non political cold opens. I get that they have to do political cold opens and I do like them. But once in a while you don’t always like Smigel’s, like not going to phone it in tonight’s song with Steve Martin is like maybe the greatest cold open ever. Once in a long while they’ll, they’ll do it, but that Travolta had nothing to do with politics whatsoever. And could you set this up? And was this always going to be the cold open or was this something that a cold open, like a political cold open or something topical didn’t play and they moved it up?
Oh, that’s a good question. I actually don’t remember if there was, uh, uh, well, I, I, yeah, I just don’t remember how it came to be, but I do know that once it came to be, uh, it was all out, uh, that took a lot of choreography. Yeah, the, Travolta was the host. And, uh, yeah, I’ve said this to you before. I’ve had these weird coincidences in my life, uh, many, many of them. And, uh, this 1 is 1 of them. And that, uh. When I first saw Saturday Night Fever, I loved that movie, too. I saw that one 20 times in Spokane, Washington. And, uh, I would drive 104 miles to see that movie, and 104 miles back to, uh, where I was in Montana at that point in my life. And, uh, I would try to walk like Travolta. I tried to be cool, because I was the guy that got the buh bye. I wanted to be the guy that got, Hi, sir. But I wasn’t, but I wanted to be like Travolta and I wanted to walk like him. The opening scene of Saturday Night Fever when he’s carrying a paint can and you have that song playing and he’s walking. It’s a cool stud move. I wanted to be like that. But there he is hosting and he’s a nice guy. And he came in with two writers that are friends of his and friends of mine. They did stand up. And we all talked, and everybody got along, and it was really cool. I actually threw out something to John Travolta. John, he’s my friend. I call him JT. Um, I said something, we should do something with that walk, because I idolized walk. He went, oh yeah, yeah, whatever, and we moved on. But then, when it came together, it was about, uh, the very cold open, it was the elevator door opens. And the feet come off the elevator and that walk happens as, and the audience will know that is a host. So they’re figuring that’s the feet and the song Stayin’ Alive is playing and it just follows the feet and him as he’s walking to the studio to open the show and do the monologue and the bit, uh, the joke is, is that he stops to use the men’s room. And, uh, when he goes into the men’s room, the music stops and, uh, the camera just waits for him to come out. And when he comes out, it picks up again, the song plays and goes, and he goes into the studio. But I got to be the guy who walks out of the bathroom first, that the cameraman mistakenly thinks it’s Travolta. I get to walk like John Travolta, then the camera pans up and sees it’s me, and the camera’s horrified that it’s me, and not Travolta, and I’m horrified the camera’s in my face, and then it recycles back, and then Travolta comes out, and the show continues. Man, I’ve got to tell you, Mark, that’s another example where I idolized that walk and there I am having Travolta telling me how to walk like that. And then the bathroom of the men’s room that he came out of that was actually a broom closet. So we’re standing in there on the live show in front of 8 million people. And he’s in there saying, remember, you just keep your feet like this. You keep your feet like this. Keep it be like this. And this is it. You’re me. Now go. That was great. That was so great. That kind of stuff. I didn’t need to be paid. I would have paid them to be there at SNL. I swear. And it did kill, I gotta say, my little five seconds of appearance as John Travolta.
The sketch was so funny and it’s one of those things with music rights. It’s not online that I know of because, you know, the Bee Gees, um, expensive. But it is, I remember the beat where Travolta had to, you know, Actually, he had to go get the restroom key from the page, and then he gets the key. And then he has to, he’s late. He has monologue. I think Joe Dicso is like one minute and he’s, then he’s running. And then it starts, the music starts fast forwarding. And, um, really, and, um, it was just such a great. Great, that whole show was at really, really strong. David Mandel at the very end, wrote this piece where they all do a, a Grease music, good night thing for good nights. And it was just, I thought that that was maybe the strongest episode that year.
Another one that you did that year was David Hyde Pierce. That would have been January of 90, I think, when you did Little Women, I still hear people talk about that sketch. Can you set it up and just talk about it? I mean, Farley was just so funny and just everybody played it very straight and very well. It was definitely memorable.
Thanks for saying that. And before I set it up, let me just tell you, will you marry me, man?
(Laughs) We might have to Utah, but um, Christine signs off on it. Do I have to sign a prenup?
Yeah, you used to also tell everybody about your wife, how she is technologically very, very adept.
She’s very smart. She does everything with the Carson podcast and this. I’ve been so lucky. Yeah. We both married well.
Nice to know that, uh, you weren’t as great at tech, uh, uh, I’m not, man, am I bad. Anyway. So that’s actually interesting. You bring up a Little Woman, my wife and I went and saw the movie, the little woman, uh, Uh, walking out, I saw that sketch literally walking through the audience because I mean, walking out of the theater because it’s a pretty simple premise, but oh, my God, Chris Farley just kills when he does that kind of thing. It’s just about the people talking the way they did in Puritan sort of. Uh, New England’s like, oh, your plum pudding’s ever so scrumptious, that kind of stuff. And when Farley falls to the ice, because they’re all ice skating, he’s just screaming like a modern day teenager would, and it destroyed. And what was kind of funny about that. This one, first of all, it did kill and that was fun. That was fun to hear those last because Farley really brought it home. Of course, he’s the best yeller I’ve ever seen anywhere on TV. But also what was kind of funny about that is he destroyed, like, I had never seen him destroy up to that point. And I had two different cast members come up to me and say, I want to be the guy who screams next time. I want to be able to fall through the ice. How simple is that? You just get to scream a bunch of curse words and kill. And it is true. Uh, it was an easy sketch to do, but Farley is amazing. It’s incredible that when people have that certain thing, whatever it is, you can’t feel like we talked once on the phone about this.Hollywood used to call it it the It Factor because they didn’t know what to call it. There’s just a certain charisma, a certain tone. They have a certain look. They have, they’ll be stars and you can know it ahead of time sometimes. But Farley is one of those guys where everybody who heard him talk and saw him knew that he was going to be huge. And he was, he became huge. And I got to tag along on that thing. I got to ride some coattails. That’s for sure.
It was very quick. He was hired in the fall of 1990. And sometimes it takes people a while to really get over. And he did that, um, and I know some people like Chris Rock, uh, not the biggest fan of it, but, um, I think overall it’s much beloved was the Patrick Swayze Chippendale, um, sketch, which was when Patrick Swayze hosted and Farley and him were Chippendale’s dancers. That was. I mean, that was only like, maybe like six, seven episodes into his tenure. And I mean, he was already really funny and stuff, but like, it happened really quick and he definitely, right away was good at that show and I mean, I’ve talked to people that worked with him in Chicago and he was just, I think you’re right. He had it. I did want to mention what Ian Maxton-Graham had told you didn’t he made a diagram when you because you would write these really funny sketches for Farley and then Ian is a joke. He gave you a diagram and what was that?
Yeah, you know, Ian’s Ian’s a great guy. A really, really good guy. And, uh, it hurt my feelings deep that he did this. I’m joking, but it was so true is, uh, after one of the sketches where Farley falls through the ice in that case, little women or in the case of, like, the George Clooney show Farley’s the one that gets wet when the whale jumps in the water and. And Clooney stays, you know, immaculate. It was Farley screaming that would kill. And Ian made a chart. Uh, we were just sitting around the table. All of us were working on whatever show. And all of a sudden I see Ian push a piece of paper towards me and I’m like, what is this going to be? And I grabbed a paper. I looked at it and Ian had drawn a chart that was Fred Wolfe writing for Chris Farley. And it was a very, it was graphs of, uh, three graphs of his Farley, whispering, talking normal or screaming. The dial was set on screaming. And the next one is Farley moist, is Farley slightly wet, is Farley soaking wet and the dial set on soaking wet. And, uh, there’s one more too, which we can’t say is Farley screaming. What word this word or this word? And it was always that word that he would scream in Tommy Boy and Black Sheep. But, uh, that was so right. So dead on–so perfect. Because that’s all you had to do is set the dials for Farley and he’d take the rest away for you.
You know, you were in a sketch in the background. I’m wondering if you wrote it and it was another Farley, uh, physical beat, which he played Andrew Giuliani, Rudy Giuliani’s son at a Yankees game. I think it was Kelsey Grammar might’ve been hosting. I don’t know if you wrote that or not, but he kept getting hit by the ball. The ball kept hitting Farley as Andrew Giuliani. I don’t know if you wrote that or not, but you were in it. Maybe not. If you were in it, probably not. Cause the writers normally have to be on call and stuff, but I didn’t know if you, if you contributed to that.
Pretty sure it was Smigel who wrote that.
Oh, really?
Pretty sure, yeah.
I think it was, it probably was Smigel. I know that that episode he was there, he did Uninhibited Dance Party. That, that, it would make sense, Smigel. I mean, he just, I mean, unbelievable guy, um, in terms of the writing.
But you’re saying he was like, at Conan at that point?
He was at Conan, but he was there that night. Yeah. And he wrote a sketch that was really, really funny. I’m just looking at the stuff that made me laugh. Um, I remember when I was my senior year of high school, you wrote a sketch for Patrick Stewart when he hosted with, um, it was, Salt N Pepa. It was this really funny sketch and it was after Update, which is a little bit harder, back then especially to get the laughs, but it was Norm Macdonald, I remember, was maybe the person that made me laugh the most, but can you set up that this sketch and what it was like working with Patrick Stewart and anything that stands out from that show?
And so it’s funny is, um, I, I don’t know if it’s my memory. I don’t know what’s going on. The shows sort of blend together because a lot of times the sketch you’ll submit the sketch for to read through on a Wednesday. And for whatever reason, it might go over. It might not go over. It might not be right. It might not fit or it might get cut. Or something like that. So you would end up submitting sketches sometimes, uh, three times, you know, sometimes even four times, uh, throughout the season. And I can’t remember if I had a sketch on during the Patrick Stewart show. I’m not sure if I did. I don’t remember.
That was the Devil sketch. It was, um, Patrick Stewart was the devil and it was, um, this sketch where at least Norm told me that you wrote it. Where Patrick Stewart is the devil. He’s like, you were going to like punishing Norm and all these guys in hell.But it’s like, what are you going to do? Is there, but there are Norman, all of them are like, what are you going to do to us? We’re already in hell. And he’s like, I’m going to turn you into a monkey. And he’s like, well, oh, good luck with that. That’s going to be really, really bad. Did you, did you write that?
Uh, that’s funny, Norm and I, uh, we shared an office and we wrote a bunch of stuff. My Lord, was he funny? And, uh, yeah, now that you say it, uh, wrote it and I remember we had crazy stuff in there. Obviously, um, Norm could be, uh, you know, we’d push the limits, and so we’d read it out, uh, together. Uh, there’s some stuff that didn’t pass muster with the censors and so forth. That’s hilarious. Now that you bring it back to me, yes. And uh, Norm’s stuff was really funny on that.
That sketch made me laugh.
Uh, you’re one of the guys, uh, you’re the only guy who ever told me this, uh, speaking of sketches that get on and don’t get on and audience reaction and so forth is, um, when I wasn’t brought back the one year after I did the guest writing stint there, they did a sketch of mine anyway, which I’d sent out, Rob probably gave it to D or something like that. Andowne it was called Stoop Rank Outs. The sketch was, this is another example of these weird, amazing coincidences in my life. In that sketch, Stoop Rank Outs, it’s about two guys sitting on the steps of a New York city, uh, and just insulting people as they walked by.
And Taxi Driver was my favorite movie of all time at that point. And I put lines from Taxi Driver into that sketch on purpose. Uh, “One day a real rain is going to come and wash all this crime off the streets and you’re the scum” was one of the lines I put in there. I wasn’t there at SNL, but Joe Pesci was the host of the show. And Schneider calls me between dress and airto say, that’s the sketch you wrote, Stoop Rankouts, it’s on with Joe Pesci. It just went to dress and guess who is in that sketch. So I had those Taxi Driver lines in that sketch written. I had written a year before this was happening. And Martin Scorsese and De Niro came by to visit Joe Pesci. And they jumped into that sketch, and they were saying those lines from Taxi Driver that I wrote in there as an homage to Taxi Driver. I had those two people saying those lines! It’s insane. It was amazing to me. Uh, something happened where the sketch actually couldn’t air for a variety of reasons, but you’re the one who told me that it did air eventually, and I had no idea that it did.
Did you see it? I sent it to you. It was, um, yeah, a 10-to-1 sketch, I think, with Pesci, and that was, uh, I think it was Joe Pesci and Spin Doctors. And that would have been in, um, 92 in the fall. And that was, uh, Pesci and Rob Schneider. And then I remember who is, it’s two people that walk by then that start doing the insults back.
And that was going to be De Niro and Scorsese.That’s the thing. It was those two guys. And Mark, it’s amazing. And then plus what else is amazing is that you are, you told me that sketch actually did air. I love it because it did. And I saw, I had no idea.
It was fun. I think it was one of those things where maybe like, especially De Niro back then might’ve gotten cold feet doing a sketch. I think that they did a, a cameo backstage where he didn’t really have to do anything. They were definitely, I think, there for that. So they might’ve, because sometimes, I mean, between dress and live, I’ll give you an example. I was at a dress rehearsal and, um, they were bringing Sandler back. He had left the show and he was coming in to do, um, Dip Doodle what his song on Update. And it was a big surprise. And at dress, they had you actually, as you were a future player, they had you playing yourself a dress. And the joke was, is that you were doing this update piece that was going nowhere and Norm’s like, let’s now let’s get a real, um, a real, somebody, a real comedian and they bring in Sandler and that was dress and for whatever reason, I loved it for the live show. They took you out of it and they just had a enormous, just like everyone, Adam Sandler and he played it, but I had loved that. I wish sometimes they would, they would just. Keep things that are fun like that when they had you doing the update thing. I don’t know if you have any, that was a gosh, Tom Arnold / Tupac. That was a long time ago. That was in 96, I believe
That was, uh, for time that was cut for time. Uh, just to get to Sandler, uh, a lot of times running over or, you know, we might be 20 seconds over 30 seconds over or whatever, so we have to just kind of thin out the herd there and, uh, I got thinned, but, uh, yeah, that’s, that’s. That’s very funny. Uh, man. When I saw Sandler there in the hallway when he came back to visit and I was still there, it was so great to see. That was such a great cast. I mean, that, that nineties was amazing. And the cast that came in also was great. It really was an amazing collection of funny people.
Yeah.
I don’t know if, uh, yeah, I, they all had that It Factor. It’s really wild.
Yeah. Looking at the list of people you got to work with in the host, it’s, it is pretty unbelievable.
You know, that, that thing I told you where I was staring at the TV, it was like six inches away from the TV set. It’s funny. You mentioned it is the show I was staring at was that, um, cold open, uh, Steve Martin, uh, scene, uh, not to call it the monologue scene. That was what I was staring at thinking. Okay, I get this. I know why this is funny. And then that’s where I saw Farley. I go, who the hell is that? Dang, that guy’s funny. And all he says, I’m not going to get drunk anymore or whatever it is. He says, and I go, Oh, that guy’s a star. But anyway. I was staring at that TV and just seeing what is different about it.
It was a Jack Handey sketch that made me say, okay, no one else is doing Jack Handey sketches. This is amazing. This is great. He is, by the way, one of the coolest best writers ever. He lives down in Santa Fe, New Mexico. And uh, I go in and visit him and we go by his house and I sit there for every single time I’ve gone by his house. I spend the first hour just going, how the hell are you so damn funny? I’m being totally serious. And his next door neighbor back in the day back in the 70s was Steve Martin, before he was doing stand up. Yeah, he started doing stand-up. Martin did. And then Jack Handey found out that his next door neighbor, he talked to all the time in an apartment, uh, was doing stand up by seeing. Steve Martin on the Tonight Show before he was wearing the suit, by the way, the white suit. And so he comes back home and Jack Handy says, you didn’t tell me you were a stand up comedian. And Steve Martin says, yeah. And so Steve eventually helped Jack Handy get on that SNL.
Yeah. Jack Handey’s stuff is unbelievable. I wish I sent him an email and he got back to me. It was very polite, but he doesn’t really do appearances or interviews too much. Certainly not something like this. Like he’s never been on Fly on the Wall with Spade and Carvey and stuff. And I’m sure they’ve asked him. And I know Seth Meyers, his favorite writer I believe, is Handey. He was very nice to get back to me. My favorite sketch he wrote was this, I don’t know if you’ve seen it. I don’t know if it’s online or not. It’s called Johnny Canal and it was John Malkovich hosted the show and he plays this frontiersman and he’s pitching this thing to the, um, where it’s like all every city, I guess every town in the country is connected by a canal. He’s proposing this, like as a frontiersman. And it’s just like, All this map of just like, everything’s connected with canals. It’s the most ridiculous premise. And he has all these like fake commercials, like sponsored by, and all these things. And it’s just, it was one of those things where I, um, Andy Breckman told me Jim Downey helped out with it a little bit too. But I mean, that guy’s mind.
Yeah, no kidding.
Talking to Smigel as well. They’re all in all in, in complete awe of that guy.
Spade called me for, uh, to get Jack Henry’s number to do, uh, Fly on the Wall. And, uh, cause Spade says, I was having trouble getting through, what’s going on here? And I go, well, he’s got a landline. And so, uh, that’s why he doesn’t necessarily answer a landline with no answering machine. I, he won’t mind me saying this, but I go by all the time. It’s a three bedroom house, I think, in Santa Fe and my wife grew up in Santa Fe. So we’re there anyway, and we pop by and, um, a rat was in his house and Jack Handey’s house and he starts feeding. He’s, they’re animal lovers. His wife works for, uh, uh, ASPCA or one of those, the rat kept coming in. And finally they just said, well, you know what, we’re just going to give this bedroom to the rat. And it’s literally the rat’s bedroom because they don’t want to kick it out. They don’t want to kill it. And it’s basically they’re living in the house with them. My daughters didn’t want to go into the room or the house. Uh, for real, they were too young. They were scared of the rat, but that’s Handey. And my God, is he funny. Oh my God.
He wrote a sketch called Scuffy the Rat. It was a VHS thing that I don’t think ever aired on anything. But it was like a home. It was like a pet rat and Andrea Martin was, I believe in the sketch. And it was all taped, but that thing, um, Coach Dobbs. I mean, it’s one of the funniest things that I don’t think that ever aired on network television. That guy’s absolutely unbelievable. I’m glad that you’re friends with him. I’m glad.
You know, I did want to ask you when you were there that year, back in 1996, this was, I can’t believe 28 years ago, New York Magazine did this cover story, Saturday night dead, Chris Smith had access to Saturday Night Live. Unprecedented for three months and then wrote this cover story where there were a lot of people on the show. I’ve talked to them. They felt betrayed by what was written. What stands out about that? I know the show was very upset with it. Um, I have briefly did talk to Chris Smith and he said, this is, this is what I observed. A lot of people thought it was a hit piece. The show was definitely having some tough. Time Smigel tried to explain to Chris Smith and he told me, you know, it’s a transition. It’s like any sports team, you know, it’s like I left, um, Handey, Jack Handey left the turners. It’s just going to take a little bit of time, but that really wasn’t included much in the article. It definitely just seemed that it was, um, overwhelmingly that it was, it was, it was a dark negative piece. Do you have any recollection? What stands out?
Sure. Yeah. Um, Lorne had said, uh, well, before this guy came by, he had told me once, uh, about how there’s, uh, cycles of anything, like you just said, sports teams is a good metaphor for analogy is that he would say, uh, you know, How many times I’ve heard “Saturday Night Live? No, Saturday Night Dead. I’ve heard it.” And I’ll be hearing it again. He knew that kind of thing happened and so forth. And this guy came in and he definitely had the agenda for sure. There was no way it was just going to be a objective piece. Absolutely not. And I can tell by the questions he asked, he would ask each person. Can I talk to you later this week or whatever? And we all scheduled different times to talk to him. And with me, I kind of bailed after a few minutes because every question was slanted. It was just that thing. So how do you feel, you know, that kind of thing. How do you feel when you see people getting sketches that aren’t this or when you know that this sketch has something that’s not really, it’s a little too juvenile. How do you feel about that? And, uh, it was just such leading questions, so obviously going to be a hit piece and, um, the guy just had an air about him. That was just, uh, not a good one. My father, uh, left our family and my mother was a single mother with four kids and my father wasn’t the best guy in the world and, um, I kind of can see it right away when somebody is, uh, put, you know, I look at them and I’ll hear them talk and I’ll say, okay, you’re like my dad. And I’ll move on and this guy I was warning people he was gonna say some bad stuff. I didn’t know he’s gonna say that bad. It was all. Yeah, that that was rough because it wasn’t true.
There was definitely at least a couple of things I was told by people on the show producers and other people that were not true in there in the article, but it did, you know, it was pre-Internet. Internally, I know that the show was very fearful of it and it caused a lot of waves. At the time, but it was definitely one of those things. He was there for three, for three weeks andfor three months, rather. And then the show comes back and you’re there the following year. And it’s just like, it’s exactly what Smigel basically said is we’re, you know, it’s going to take a while to rebuild. And suddenly the following year, it’s like, Will Ferrell is, is in the building, you know, it’s Cheri Oteri. And, um, it definitely, it just goes through cycles.
Yeah, it’s, yeah, and, and it’s true. And then also, like, right now I’m looking at the background of your apartment and, uh, to me, I grew up in New York city and, uh, you’re in Queens, I don’t know if I should say that or not.
It’s okay.
Yeah. And I’ve been to Hershey PA, which I love. Okay. Now I loved Hershey PA. I did the tour of the Hershey plant. I could say. Bad stuff about the Hershey plant if I wanted to and I could say good stuff or I could say a mix of stuff. I I actually love Hershey’s bars. And that’s why I went to see the tour I love that your street lamps there are Hershey kisses, you know the shape of Hershey kisses I could say anything bad I wanted. And um, that’s what this guy did. He just came in with the agenda and he was set on saying certain things that may seem true to the viewer for instance The woman, uh that women were sort of kept out of sketches was absolutely false beyond all falseness. It’s just insanely false. But that was part of the agenda that he wanted to get out there is that there’s, um, you know, we hired more women, but at the same time, they were never kept out of sketches, they were encouraged and they were super funny. And, uh, I loved the women that work there. And I was really, really sad that he would go after the show for supposedly keeping them back because, um, there’s no way that was happening.
It was, it was just, I think it was just tough for a lot of people that were there. Chris Elliott would echo that. Um, Mike, Michael McKean was getting his sketches on that he was writing, but I just know for overall, it was just, it was, um, just a rebuilding season. And then you come back to the show and all they brought in, I think the only people that they brought back writing wise was at the top of the season was, was you, Steve Koren. Um, there must have been one or two other people, but not many people. I mean, it was all pretty much new hires. It was, it was, um, McKay, Adam McKay. And they brought, um, Hugh Fink to write for Spade for, um, and then they brought in Paula Pell, Cindy Caponera. I’m trying to think of who they were, but there were a Colin Quinn, of course, but they were pretty much. Um, almost all new people. That’s my recollection. Were you surprised they brought you back? I’m glad they brought you back. You wrote some great pieces. Um, when that, that season we’ll, we’ll get to them, but the only people I remember might’ve been you and Koren that they actually did bring back.
Uh, yeah. And there’s a, uh, you know, a few others, but things were sort of colliding in that people, cast members left on their own volition, uh, as part of that whole changeover too. And then writers. That were associated with them would kind of move on and continue writing for them, the stars and stuff. In other words, it wasn’t all about changing things willfully, I guess, but, uh, I was actually walking with Lorne in Beverly Hills, uh, before that season started. And, uh, like we would do these two hours walk. And by the way, I love this thing. Uh, I told this to many people is that when Lorne and I would first start walking through Beverly Hills, I was always amazed that I was hanging with Lorne, but I, he would walk on the sidewalk. And, uh, I would walk to the left of the sidewalk over tree roots and duck under tree branches to keep the conversation, let him talk and let him say what he’s going to say. And as the years kind of wore on, I got a little more confident. I got a strip of sidewalk, but I never took over the sidewalk.
Smart man.
Yes, right? But, um, it was so great when he asked me if I would be the head writer. I had never done this before, uh, ever in my life. I said, uh, yeah, would you give me featured player? And he said, “done.” I’ll never forget that. And uh, I don’t ask for stuff like that and I got it.
Smart man to ask. 100%. I did just remember Tim Herlihy. He was another one. I think it was three of you were brought back. And then for Update, uh, Frank Sebastiano and Ross Abrash were brought in and I’m sure there’s a few other people that I’m… Norm Hiscock actually is another one. I think that maybe stayed over. Um, but there weren’t a lot is my point. It was mostly new people that they were bringing in.
You’re right. A lot of new people, uh, real quick, uh, Frank Sebastiano, really quick. Okay. He was brought in, he was moving, he was moving furniture. Uh, in New Jersey, that was his job. But when he submitted jokes, and Norm Macdonald read the jokes, and I read the jokes too. Norm showed them to me, and Downey, we read those jokes, and they were so damn funny. And I go, who is this kid? And then we’re bringing them in, and there’s Frank Sebastiano, who shows up. Okay, so now I pass him in the hallway, never met him before. And, uh, he theoretically doesn’t know who I am, but I guess he did. And I pass them in the hallway and I make a joke. And if they get the joke, great. If they don’t get the joke, they might be mad at me for the rest of our lives. But as I walked past Frank, I go, I’m Frank Sebastiano. I write for Norm Macdonald. And he said, immediately without a pause, he goes, I’m Fred Wolf getting choked by Frank Sebastiano. And I laughed so freaking hard, I swear to you, I laughed for maybe 30 minutes, couldn’t stop laughing, by myself laughing, and I told everybody how funny this guy was, and my god, how do you say it that fast? How do you say it that quick and with a smile? And I wasn’t pissed at all, but he just, he just criticized the head writer. So he’s going to choke him. That was a great add. And, uh, Ross Abrash too, by the way, those were some great writers for, uh, for update. Now you’re saying where they brought in that year or the year before
They were brought in, um, that year with McKay, they were, I blanked on Jim Downey. Cause I mean, I just, I remembered that they removed him from the top producer position and they did bring him back to do, um, Norm’s Update for that year. Um, so yeah, it was an amazing group of people. They brought in a bunch of new people.
